Ok, time to solve this problem

[FuzzyAce]

I've never heard a keyboard player complaining that playing his piano samples through his stage amp does not feel like his grand piano at the concert hall. He just adds a Hall Reverb
Maybe they are more technically clever than most guitarists. Many of us are full of esoteric BS about tone, or get option paralysis whith more than 3 knobs, or complain about a bright bright pickup and ask for a pickup replacement reccomendation without even touching the guitar's tone knob, blaming the type of wood, the fretboard material, nitro vs lacker, or the oil finish on the neck.

 

[EOengineer]

My “solution” ended up being kind of ridiculous but it’s working. I’m going with a hybrid approach:

I bring a beloved tube amp for the stage. Sometimes it’s a Rev G Dual Rectifier, or recently a Ceriatone 2204. Pick the amp that works for your stage/venue situation.

I use a Helix in 4cm with my physical stage amp for all FX on path 1. Path 2 has all those same FX duplicated and an appropriately placed Amp model matching whatever I’m gigging with - that runs separately to FOH and then the footswitching handles all the FX switching for both paths. It’s all synced.

It’s the happiest I’ve been. I get the tube amp vibe happening on stage and FOH gets a crystal clean feed that isn’t weird if it’s coming back at me through the wedges.

I’m still showing up with an amp, a guitar, and a pedal board (Helix). Honestly it’s killer.

 

[dronerstone]

My “solution” ended up being kind of ridiculous but it’s working. I’m going with a hybrid approach:

I bring a beloved tube amp for the stage. Sometimes it’s a Rev G Dual Rectifier, or recently a Ceriatone 2204. Pick the amp that works for your stage/venue situation.

I use a Helix in 4cm with my physical stage amp for all FX on path 1. Path 2 has all those same FX duplicated and an appropriately placed Amp model matching whatever I’m gigging with - that runs separately to FOH and then the footswitching handles all the FX switching for both paths. It’s all synced.

It’s the happiest I’ve been. I get the tube amp vibe happening on stage and FOH gets a crystal clean feed that isn’t weird if it’s coming back at me through the wedges.

I’m still showing up with an amp, a guitar, and a pedal board (Helix). Honestly it’s killer.

Sounds pretty good, I run a similar approach.

One question though, why recreate the signal chain on two different paths? I get that synced switching is fun, but I'd rather place a split near the end, running straight to the amp, while running the "other half" into a cab + room ambience, then straight to FOH.

 

[EOengineer]

Sounds pretty good, I run a similar approach.

One question though, why recreate the signal chain on two different paths? I get that synced switching is fun, but I'd rather place a split near the end, running straight to the amp, while running the "other half" into a cab + room ambience, then straight to FOH.

I’ve got pre and post FX happening on path 1 with my physical amp in a loop, so the post FX are dirtied up with my amp signal.

One day I’m going to sit down and work out how to share at least the pre fx on both paths. I brute forced the Helix routing just to get a proof of concept going and still need to clean it up a bit.

 

[Orvillain]

I've never heard a keyboard player complaining that playing his piano samples through his stage amp does not feel like his grand piano at the concert hall. He just adds a Hall Reverb
Maybe they are more technically clever than most guitarists. Many of us are full of esoteric BS about tone, or get option paralysis whith more than 3 knobs, or complain about a bright bright pickup and ask for a pickup replacement reccomendation without even touching the guitar's tone knob, blaming the type of wood, the fretboard material, nitro vs lacker, or the oil finish on the neck.

Keyboard players are insanely picky about piano libraries tbh!

 

[EOengineer]

Piano players enjoy playing digital pianos as much as drummers enjoy playing rubber cymbals.

 

[deadpool_25]

My “solution” ended up being kind of ridiculous but it’s working. I’m going with a hybrid approach:

I bring a beloved tube amp for the stage. Sometimes it’s a Rev G Dual Rectifier, or recently a Ceriatone 2204. Pick the amp that works for your stage/venue situation.

I use a Helix in 4cm with my physical stage amp for all FX on path 1. Path 2 has all those same FX duplicated and an appropriately placed Amp model matching whatever I’m gigging with - that runs separately to FOH and then the footswitching handles all the FX switching for both paths. It’s all synced.

It’s the happiest I’ve been. I get the tube amp vibe happening on stage and FOH gets a crystal clean feed that isn’t weird if it’s coming back at me through the wedges.

I’m still showing up with an amp, a guitar, and a pedal board (Helix). Honestly it’s killer.

Sounds like a great setup, if it's working well and making you happy, roll with it.

 

[laxu]

What does "more of a guitar cab mean" other than changing the frequency balance of what is coming in on purpose? I challenge anyone ever to show me an EQ change that will ALWAYS sound better, even on as narrow a range as distorted electric guitar.

Even that most evil of all frequencies, 315hz, cannot just be attenuated willy nilly, for instance if there's an impulse being presented that has already severely attenuated 315hz.

Meaning it won't be particularly flat in its response, and won't have the kind of low/high range response a proper fullrange speaker. Afaik the Fender FR-12 low frequency response drops off a cliff under 70 Hz, which should be perfect for guitar frequency ranges.

It's kind of like approaches to hifi speaker design: Do you want it to be "warts and all" accurate, or would you rather have something that makes music pleasing to listen to? There will be proponents of both schools of design.

The EQ is there to allow for quick changes to accommodate the sound to a particular room or mix. Modelers are surprisingly terrible at this where getting to a global EQ can be cumbersome depending on the device, and can then be a lot more complicated to figure out quickly compared to the "get rid of most of the bass on the guitar" one knob turn when you are given next to no time for a soundcheck.

 

[FuzzyAce]

Meaning it won't be particularly flat in its response, and won't have the kind of low/high range response a proper fullrange speaker. Afaik the Fender FR-12 low frequency response drops off a cliff under 70 Hz, which should be perfect for guitar frequency ranges.

It's kind of like approaches to hifi speaker design: Do you want it to be "warts and all" accurate, or would you rather have something that makes music pleasing to listen to? There will be proponents of both schools of design.

The EQ is there to allow for quick changes to accommodate the sound to a particular room or mix. Modelers are surprisingly terrible at this where getting to a global EQ can be cumbersome depending on the device, and can then be a lot more complicated to figure out quickly compared to the "get rid of most of the bass on the guitar" one knob turn when you are given next to no time for a soundcheck.

If I were ever to go this route I'd prefer as neutral as possible PA and speaker, then insert a simple graphic eq in between the modeler and PA.

 

[laxu]

If I were ever to go this route I'd prefer as neutral as possible PA and speaker, then insert a simple graphic eq in between the modeler and PA.

I see this more as a "what will require minimum extra effort to sound good" thing. Having that EQ built in on the output system can be valuable, and if the character of the system is already suited to work well in a band mix then that can be valuable too.

I sold my Boss EQ-200 graphic EQ pedal some time ago because I figured it was just extra complication - the simple low/high shelf + 600 Hz midrange filters on my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME would do more than enough to make the sound to my liking.

 

[FuzzyAce]

I see this more as a "what will require minimum extra effort to sound good" thing. Having that EQ built in on the output system can be valuable, and if the character of the system is already suited to work well in a band mix then that can be valuable too.

I sold my Boss EQ-200 graphic EQ pedal some time ago because I figured it was just extra complication - the simple low/high shelf + 600 Hz midrange filters on my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME would do more than enough to make the sound to my liking.

Seems like I'd prefer to tweak a physical eq than to adjust the presets or a global block of some kind. I guess it depends on the modeler ease of use and how many sounds you need for a gig though. There's no perfect solution for everybody.

 

[pipelineaudio]

All this seems to just be backing up my point. Either its just imagination, or it is something pretty colored and awful

Meaning it won't be particularly flat in its response, and won't have the kind of low/high range response a proper fullrange speaker. Afaik the Fender FR-12 low frequency response drops off a cliff under 70 Hz, which should be perfect for guitar frequency ranges.

Which would be not necessarily so cool if the IR was already set for a hi pass filter, and in a Venn diagram, the "FRFR" could do 100% of what the Fender system could do, while the Fender could only do a subset of what the "FRFR" could do, which again, would make the Fender less capable than a regular "FRFR", though maybe easier to use I guess

It's kind of like approaches to hifi speaker design: Do you want it to be "warts and all" accurate, or would you rather have something that makes music pleasing to listen to? There will be proponents of both schools of design.

What error in frequency response would ALWAYS be pleasing? Putting a 12kHz boost like some cork sniffer mic pres do? Not so great when recording quiet orchestra instruments! High passing stuff you "probably don't need anyway? Not cool at all when that results in stopband pole buildup with means a bump UP around the stop band!

The EQ is there to allow for quick changes to accommodate the sound to a particular room or mix. Modelers are surprisingly terrible at this where getting to a global EQ can be cumbersome depending on the device, and can then be a lot more complicated to figure out quickly compared to the "get rid of most of the bass on the guitar" one knob turn when you are given next to no time for a soundcheck.

This could certainly be handy, and its nice to be immediately accessible. Then again even the el cheapo Altos have a full graphic EQ you can just dial in on your phone. Maybe not as fast, but certainly far more powerful

 

[AlbertA]

Well duh, if true ""FRFR"" was most ideal, then people wouldn’t be complaining about the sound of their modelers through studio monitors not being amp in the room enough.

You are likely mis-attributing to an "FRFR" system what is likely caused by cabinet IRs that have been captured by close mic'ing.

 

[sashimi]

Well sure, and my experience was that the fender FR12 made a close mic’d IR sound more like an amplifier, regardless of what a couple guys in this thread say, who apparently have no personal experience with the FR12, but have a heavy bias against them for whatever reason.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Well sure, and my experience was that the fender FR12 made a close mic’d IR sound more like an amplifier, regardless of what a couple guys in this thread say, who apparently have no personal experience with the FR12, but have a heavy bias against them for whatever reason.

I don't care one way or another about the FR12, but will note that what is often seen in the "so much better than studio monitors" testimonials (about any monitor - not just FR12) is a person comparing how it feels to play a modeler through a pair of speakers sitting on a desk at ear height, 4 feet away from, and pointed straight at, their head to the experience using a single bigger speaker sitting on (or a lot closer to) the floor (often further away; often not pointed as directly at ear holes; often at louder volumes (very often at much louder volumes)). In such a scenario it is impossible to know if the "more like an amp" experience is due to a change in technology, or if it is simply due to the obvious-but-not-obvious notion that when you put an "FRFR" monitor in the same location you tend to put an amp played at a similar volume to how you play an amp, you are more likely to have a more amp like experience than if you put an "FRFR" monitor in a place(s) that you would never consider putting an actual amp and played at lower volumes than you typically play an actual amp.

 

[ragingplatypi]

I've never heard a keyboard player complaining that playing his piano samples through his stage amp does not feel like his grand piano at the concert hall. He just adds a Hall Reverb
Maybe they are more technically clever than most guitarists. Many of us are full of esoteric BS about tone, or get option paralysis whith more than 3 knobs, or complain about a bright bright pickup and ask for a pickup replacement reccomendation without even touching the guitar's tone knob, blaming the type of wood, the fretboard material, nitro vs lacker, or the oil finish on the neck.

That’s because pianists don’t lurk here. Look at the price difference between a Nord Stage and a Casiotone

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

Oh yeah!

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I've never heard a keyboard player complaining that playing his piano samples through his stage amp does not feel like his grand piano at the concert hall. He just adds a Hall Reverb
Maybe they are more technically clever than most guitarists. Many of us are full of esoteric BS about tone, or get option paralysis whith more than 3 knobs, or complain about a bright bright pickup and ask for a pickup replacement reccomendation without even touching the guitar's tone knob, blaming the type of wood, the fretboard material, nitro vs lacker, or the oil finish on the neck.

Know very many E pianists? I know a few and they'll talk your ear off about things us guitarists dgaf about. I need to dig up that thread I was reading where a couple of pianists were deep in the weeds about sampled vs modeled piano sounds

 

[Alex Kenivel]

 

[metropolis_4]

I really couldn’t care less about the technical details and nuances of “"FRFR"”. I just want something to sound good when I’m playing through it

I don’t even care about graphs!