Donner Arena 2000 - possibly the best UI on a small modeler?

[GTR37]

Valeton = Hotone.

pretty much I think Valeton is like the Toyota , to Ampero=the Lexus ,but they are built on the same foundation

 

[Sascha Franck]

Maybe I have bad ears, but it just doesn't sound good to me.

True, it doesn't. But that's not what this thread is about.

Just as it is not about who might (or might as well not) have copied/adapted/stolen/licensed whatever underlying technical things from whomever.

This is just about the UI - and I still find it to be absolutely excellent, better than anything I've seen on any devices of that (or a similar) form factor, which includes all the big guns. GT-1000 Core, HX Stomp, FM3, etc. - none of them offer as comfortable on-unit editing.

 

[riffy]

True, it doesn't. But that's not what this thread is about.

Just as it is not about who might (or might as well not) have copied/adapted/stolen/licensed whatever underlying technical things from whomever.

This is just about the UI - and I still find it to be absolutely excellent, better than anything I've seen on any devices of that (or a similar) form factor, which includes all the big guns. GT-1000 Core, HX Stomp, FM3, etc. - none of them offer as comfortable on-unit editing.

I have to agree with you. The UI looks extremely easy to navigate, with everything I would need, right on top.

 

[Sedaxel]

What it´s clear is:

Hotnoe/Valeton/Sonicake are the same company.

Mooer/Flamma are the same company (they even went tohether to the last Shanghai fair).

Nux is independent.

Donner seems to be independent too.

Harley Benton redrands several makes (Mooer, Melo Audio... and probably more).

 

[laxu]

What it´s clear is:

Hotnoe/Valeton/Sonicake are the same company.

Mooer/Flamma are the same company (they even went tohether to the last Shanghai fair).

Nux is independent.

Donner seems to be independent too.

Harley Benton redrands several makes (Mooer, Melo Audio... and probably more).

I assume Donner is not the actual OEM brand for their modeler though. The brand makes a lot of different things.

That said...if your products are so close to each other that you can easily mistake them for a competitor, maybe it's time to do something different?

 

[Sascha Franck]

That said...if your products are so close to each other that you can easily mistake them for a competitor, maybe it's time to do something different?

Well, at least UI-wise, Donner is doing that, otherwise I wouldn't have started a thread about a modeler that defenitely doesn't offer anything to write home about in the sound department. Editing this guy is as fast as editing a unit with a touchscreen to select and a sufficient amount of encoders exposed (namely just the QC and the TMP) or as fast as with the Helix Floor/LT with all the relevant "edit worthy" blocks mapped to switches. No other units I've seen so far will allow for as efficient editing.

Seriously, give me this with decent modeling/FX quality, gapless switching, rev/del spillover and global blocks and I'll instantly pay 3x the price.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Donner seems to be independent too.

I always thought so, too, but there seems to be a whole bunch of made-in-China pedals (and what not) that everybody seems to have access to. Just order a different color and slap a different company decal onto it and there you go. I'd bet you could get some popular drive pedals in at least 10 different incarnations, all literally being the same pedal, just colored and labeled differently, Donner being no exception when it comes to selling these.
And quite obviously, when it comes to analog pedals, most of them are rip-offs of other wellknown pedals to start with already.

Seems to happen with digital items as well, and with some units it's glaringly obvious that they're using exactly the same engine under the hood. Can't find it anymore, but IIRC, there was someone using the editor of one unit for another unit of a different company.

Still, as long as these companies are ok with it (and at least in case that "intellectual property sharing" stays within China, they likely are...), I couldn't care less.
And as said, even in case all the things working under the hood of this Donner unit are "adapted" from whomever, IMO they still deserve massive applause for coming up with that UI on a device that small.

 

[Sedaxel]

I assume Donner is not the actual OEM brand for their modeler though. The brand makes a lot of different things.

That said...if your products are so close to each other that you can easily mistake them for a competitor, maybe it's time to do something different?

I haven´t heard any sounds of it (frankly, I have zero interest in it). In order to know if the software is from other brand, comparing tones should be the answer. Or, if someone could tell the amps models included, it´s quite easy to check others user manuals to compare the list. If the list is similar to "X" brand... there you have it.

However, taking a look at the manual, I find a clue that this is not a from any other than Donner: input impedance is 470KOhm. If I recall, no brand uses that value in this kind of modelers. They all use 1MOhm. Only Zoom uses 470KOhm... but I really don´t think these guys are using Zoom software, or getting their device manufactured by them at all, since everything in the hardware is SO different and it´d be really weird that Zoom makes anything for anyone.

Nope. My genuine feeling is that this Donner is from their own.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Or, if someone could tell the amps models included, it´s quite easy to check others user manuals to compare the list.

Unortunately, there's no model list for the Arena 2000. Which might indicate that it's a lift off.
Fwiw, I'd actually suspect things to be similar as with analog pedals. There could be a factory (or more than one) mass producing certain baseline PCBs, chips and circuits, possibly with somewhat varying connectivity options (access points for FX loops yes/no, MIDI module yes/no, etc.), preconfigured so they'd all work with the same kind of baseline software algorithms. As the final selling company, you'd then a) define the exact feature set, order a case to suit the unit and add whatever might be your corporate design and b) modify the baseline software so it suits your very unit and corporate design.
In other words: I don't exactly think that other companies are stealing from Mooer, they're just ordering the same baseline components.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I find a clue that this is not a from any other than Donner: input impedance is 470KOhm.

Apart from the fact that this is quite not so good, I'm not sure how much that'd be a clue. Let's assume they were only "sharing" the main components, such as PCB, chips and what not - and add the case and whatever connects to the outside world on their own, so basically everything analog would be on their own ideas. This would then include the analog input (and hence its impedance).

Whatever, it's all just speculation, but given the cheap price points of many of these MIC modelers, I think it's fair to assume that there's a whole lot of shared components used under the hood, even in China it's very likely not exactly possible to sell a 100% genuine modeler of this functionality for less than 300 bucks.

 

[Sedaxel]

Unortunately, there's no model list for the Arena 2000. Which might indicate that it's a lift off.
Fwiw, I'd actually suspect things to be similar as with analog pedals. There could be a factory (or more than one) mass producing certain baseline PCBs, chips and circuits, possibly with somewhat varying connectivity options (access points for FX loops yes/no, MIDI module yes/no, etc.), preconfigured so they'd all work with the same kind of baseline software algorithms. As the final selling company, you'd then a) define the exact feature set, order a case to suit the unit and add whatever might be your corporate design and b) modify the baseline software so it suits your very unit and corporate design.
In other words: I don't exactly think that other companies are stealing from Mooer, they're just ordering the same baseline components.

It could be.

But I find it unprobable... the layout of the IN/OUTs is different to anything I´ve seen. That factory should have a brutal flexibility to modify those kind of things in their multipurpose pcb.

I don´t know... maybe it´s all much easier than that: maybe Donner has developed their unit... ha!

 

[Sascha Franck]

I don´t know... maybe it´s all much easier than that: maybe Donner has developed their unit... ha!

Sure - but really, at 250-300 bucks (€/US$), even given chinese low work payments, covering all the R&D and what not seems barely possible.

 

[Sedaxel]

Sure - but really, at 250-300 bucks (€/US$), even given chinese low work payments, covering all the R&D and what not seems barely possible.

I know. It´s just crazy.

But every low price brands are getting there. Maybe the prices increase that We all have seen these recent years is just putting everything in its real place. Maybe it was crazy to buy a Helix LT (new) for 700€ (which I did 5 years ago), and the right price is the current one (around 1k).

 

[GTR37]

I assume Donner is not the actual OEM brand for their modeler though. The brand makes a lot of different things.

That said...if your products are so close to each other that you can easily mistake them for a competitor, maybe it's time to do something different?

The Hotone mini is pretty different
You get a touchscreen , app
And simple preset up / down switches but it like 249
Problem is to make that in the US probably be $500

Originally , most of the overseas stuff was a joke , flimsy plastic cases and $150 but now they are catching on , metal chassis touch screens and much improved core sounds . In fact I prefer some of their models like the JCM800 and Freidman HBE over something like Line6

 

[Sascha Franck]

But every low price brands are getting there. Maybe the prices increase that We all have seen these recent years is just putting everything in its real place. Maybe it was crazy to buy a Helix LT (new) for 700€ (which I did 5 years ago), and the right price is the current one (around 1k).

In general, I'd agree but it's actually quite weird right now. Popularity still seems to be the major thing when it comes to pricing for at least some things. For instance, the GT-1000 has pretty always been between the Helix Floor and LT, today it's €150 cheaper than the LT - and at least hadwarewise, that's pretty much not justified, so it's every bit down to popularity.
And then there's things such as the Donner popping up left and right. I'd say there's some politcal aspects to this, too. China can just afford to flood the market with extremely affordable electronic devices - and while being a rather niche product, it doesn't stop at modelers. They just have the means to mass produce things at very low costs (cheap manpower, energy and whatever ressources plus the infrastructure to build mega facilities) with most people not expecting to get rich, either, so they don't need to make a lot of profit on these units. Perhaps the latter is even the most important point. I mean, most electronic products are basicall made in China, at least their components are. But as soon as they get branded and sold (or even assembled, which is an incredible cost multiplier) by companies outside of China, prices go *way* up because people want their chalet in St. Moritz.

 

[Lysander]

Donner seems to be independent too.

Donner, Ammon, and Rowin are reportedly all the same company, building OEM designs mostly from Mooer; their mini pedals even have the same PCB number markings. It's not difficult to set up a factory in China these days, specially when you can offload the (expensive!) R&D of modeling product on a third party.

And Mooer stuff has long crossed the "good enough" threshold; i only messed with the GE 200 for a little while, but it sounded pretty damn good to me. They definitely have good sounding, road-worthy modelers.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Sweet, another shitty modeler with the latency of a few minutes. But hey, the UI is so good you don’t have to read a PDF.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Sweet, another shitty modeler with the latency of a few minutes. But hey, the UI is so good you don’t have to read a PDF.

Turn the time zone difference into an advantage!

 

[GTR37]

Sweet, another shitty modeler with the latency of a few minutes. But hey, the UI is so good you don’t have to read a PDF.

Actually according to LAL or whatever his name is Hotone improved the latency after his vid
w amp and Ir it is down inside 5 now and operating is 3.0

 

[paisleywookiee]

Actually according to LAL or whatever his name is Hotone improved the latency after his vid
w amp and Ir it is down inside 5 now and operating is 3.0

Yay.