Global features on modelers suck

[Progressive_disclosure]

But I would loose the usefulness of having certain parameters with global values and some others with local values.

Actually, the simplest solution would be that a global block can't have parameters tied to snapshots. But the ability to override them with local absolute values from snapshots looks more appealing to me, and the development cost wouldn't be much higher.

That sounds workable to me. If you have amps with multiple channels at least. Then you choose betweeen global blocks or snapshot control of parameters. And you can have ”local” blocks with snapshot parameter changes as well.

 

[Sascha Franck]

But I would loose the usefulness of having certain parameters with global values and some others with local values.

Yes. But such is life.

Nah, seriously, so far we don't even have a proper implementation of global blocks on any modeler (no firsthand experience with the Axe FX, but from what @laxu has been describing so far, it's not ideal).
So, as long as we could see them being implemented somehow properly (not just in the HX series), I'd possibly be fine. And I would be able to live with the limitation that once a block's parameters are controlled via snapshots, I could possibly not really use them as a global block anymore.
It'd still be better than nothing - and there might be further solutions coming later.

 

[molul]

There's one thing we can all agree on: it's been almost a month since Line6 announced the Stadium and we need a marketing video to prevent us from imagining unannounced features XD

 

[Sascha Franck]

I also think a relative value on snapshot changes would be a good default. Perhaps with a setting to toggle to absolute values but that’s perhaps going too far into unneeded complexity.

Well, if we talk about the HX series, there might be an issue with presets created on the OG units not being compatible anymore if the snapshot paradigm would be changed.

However, for some situations there'd be different ways to tackle the issue. Let's take reverbs and delays. Even if snapshots were still using absolute values, you could slap them onto a parallel (mixed in) path and control the return mixer value globally.

Anyhow, in the end, for my (very personal!) use cases, I'd actually wanted anything global to be "truly" global. Read: I likely wouldn't use snapshot control on these blocks (regardless whether it's relative offsets or absolute values) at all.

While there are a whole lot of implications thinkable, for me (again: very personally), the main idea behind global blocks would be for them to allow me to adjust very crucial parameters quickly and systemwide. And it's just those very crucial parameters I would never even think of controlling them via snapshots. Just as I'd never wanted an analog amp's treble pot to be altered on a preset. If I wanted that kinda thing, I'd possibly rather use an EQ in addition.

As said, this might only be me and there's several more scenarios for global blocks to be useful, but as is, I could perfectly live with the limitation of snapshots being snapshots and global blocks being global blocks. I would even be fine with global blocks overriding all snapshot values.
Yes, there'd be better solutions, but nobody would force anyone to use global blocks, so people could continue doing things as before and only use global blocks when applicable.

If you think about all that stuff in a kinda streamlined fashion, such as "which parameters do I actually want to control via snapshots and which parameters would I want to control globally?", you might perhaps come to a similar conclusion, namely that there might be very little overlap (possibly with the exception of delay/reverb parameters) between them. For me, that very certainly is the case.

Add to this that there might be other "handmade" solutions. Want more gain from your amp in one snapshot while the amp is set to be a global block? Add a boost in front and control it via snapshots. Want more delay on one snapshot and still control the overall mix globally? See above, control the delay via snapshots but set the return mixer to global.

As pretty much everyone, I think it's a wise idea to keep things more or less straightforward. Adding additional layers of complexity, while being fantastic in nerd-land (such as the mentioned offsets) may not click well with many people. Let alone they might become difficult to implement.
Adding a new "you can now adjust this block globally but lose snapshot control" option however, as limited as it might be, would be pretty straightforward.

Sorry for all the words (I know, some people don't like my diatribes...).

 

[Sascha Franck]

There's one thing we can all agree on: it's been almost a month since Line6 announced the Stadium and we need a marketing video to prevent us from imagining unannounced features XD

Sure. But I think that any such a video wouldn't be even half-representative of what the Stadium may be like in 1-5 years from now. Given all currently available information, L6 has the same kinda future road map as for the OG HX series, hence we will likely see many functionalities being added (apart from new block models). The OG Floor has seen some really incredible improvements in terms of usability over the years. So maybe they're at least sort of monitoring what people want apart from new amps and FX (after all, there's been reasons why there was something like Ideascale).

 

[ian_dissonance]

Yeah, for me having settings that link across presets is so helpful with live rigs. Even if it’s just my amp/drive/cab settings. I can build all kinds of pedalboards around base that sounds good loud and know that they’ll all mostly work together at volume because I can edit one and they’ll all line up. I don’t even need anything super complicated. Just a pop-up that asks me if I want to edit my global block before any changes are saved.

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

For simplicity it sounds great to start with one-or-the-other between global and snapshot control. If we get more multichannel amp with Stadium and channel is changeable by snapshot there is a lot of room for setting things up.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For simplicity it sounds great to start with one-or-the-other between global and snapshot control. If we get more multichannel amp with Stadium and channel is changeable by snapshot there is a lot of room for setting things up.

Defenitely.

And really, I think all throughout the time I used the Floor (and I used it in a lot of context), I always only used one single preset per gig and still almost never controlled anything but on/off via snapshots (pretty obviously, that very on/off function shouldn't be overwritten globally - unless there'd be an option to allow for it, possibly useful for cabs), it's possibly been in 2-3 presets that I wanted, say, a bit more warble from a tremolo on one or the other snapshot - and that was basically it.
As said, others might make much more use of that feature, but I always found it to become kinda confusing in terms of "patch housekeeping" once there were too much snapshot controls going on.

 

[laxu]

As said, others might make much more use of that feature, but I always found it to become kinda confusing in terms of "patch housekeeping" once there were too much snapshot controls going on.

Which is another thing I hope Line6 considers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no one place to see what Helix is doing with snapshots, right? Like you can't get a list of parameters controlled by snapshots, you have to select each block and see if the snapshot control indicator is there.

Hotone is at least a bit clearer about it since the params that are scene controlled change colors, or they go back to the original color if the value is the same. But that also doesn't have any full listing available.

 

[molul]

I've heavily used snapshots for changing parameters, apart from on/off on blocks. But in most cases, it was for optimization (because I couldn't add more blocks). So for instance, instead of having two delay blocks with different delay time (or whatever), I'd have a single delay block with the delay time tied to snapshots.

Same for pitch shift mix, tremolo rate, distortion gain...

Which is another thing I hope Line6 considers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no one place to see what Helix is doing with snapshots, right? Like you can't get a list of parameters controlled by snapshots, you have to select each block and see if the snapshot control indicator is there.

There's no list of all parameters controlled by snapshots, but they are shown with a "[ X ]" and in white text if you go to the block.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no one place to see what Helix is doing with snapshots, right?

Correct. Regardless of whether it's in the editor or on the unit, you need to select the block first. And the snapshots themselves, to see how much whatever parameter is altered.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I've heavily used snapshots for changing parameters, apart from on/off on blocks. But in most cases, it was for optimization (because I couldn't add more blocks). So for instance, instead of having two delay blocks with different delay time (or whatever), I'd have a single delay block with the delay time tied to snapshots.

Ok. This will likely be another case where global blocks come into play. No need to cram it all into one preset anymore. Just use another one.
Look at it this way: Instead of staying within a single preset using snapshots, you could as well just use multiple presets without haveing to keep track of each aspect of multiple presets, simply because all common blocks could be globalized.
I know it's not exactly the same, but it should at least adress some of the issues. Running out of blocks is pretty much less likely to happen once you could spread the load of one preset over two (or even more).

 

[Progressive_disclosure]

Correct. Regardless of whether it's in the editor or on the unit, you need to select the block first. And the snapshots themselves, to see how much whatever parameter is altered.

It would have been nice to be able to see all snapshot assignments somehow, at least in HX Native. Half the time I can’t remember WTF I was setting up the last time I went crazy on editing presets.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It would have been nice to be able to see all snapshot assignments somehow, at least in HX Native. Half the time I can’t remember WTF I was setting up the last time I went crazy on editing presets.

Yeah, Helix patches can become as complexed as some synths - and once it comes to snapshots, possibly even more so.
As said, once you leave a patch alone for a while and come back, it's often all just chinese.

 

[molul]

Ok. This will likely be another case where global blocks come into play. No need to cram it all into one preset anymore. Just use another one.
Look at it this way: Instead of staying within a single preset using snapshots, you could as well just use multiple presets without haveing to keep track of each aspect of multiple presets, simply because all common blocks could be globalized.
I know it's not exactly the same, but it should at least adress some of the issues. Running out of blocks is pretty much less likely to happen once you could spread the load of one preset over two (or even more).

I dunno. I like having a preset per song and snapshots for each song section. A preset per song part would be worse unless there's full spillover (and in OG Helix it has a limitation that prevents me from using it).

Also, I use a different set of blocks on each song, so that kind of global wouldn't work for me.

The only thing that would currently improve my workflow is to have global blocks for those few that I seldom or never change and share across all presets, like amp+cabs, compressors, noise gate, shimmer...

 

[molul]

It would have been nice to be able to see all snapshot assignments somehow, at least in HX Native. Half the time I can’t remember WTF I was setting up the last time I went crazy on editing presets.

I actually think there's a tab in Native. Isn't it Automation/Controller assign?

 

[Sascha Franck]

I actually think there's a tab in Native. Isn't it Automation/Controller assign?

It's just for automation and controllers and doesn't cover snapshots.

 

[laxu]

I actually think there's a tab in Native. Isn't it Automation/Controller assign?

View attachment 48262

That's a different feature. That's for automation and external control, and does not show snapshot control.

 

[ian_dissonance]

I dunno. I like having a preset per song and snapshots for each song section. A preset per song part would be worse unless there's full spillover (and in OG Helix it has a limitation that prevents me from using it).

Also, I use a different set of blocks on each song, so that kind of global wouldn't work for me.

The only thing that would currently improve my workflow is to have global blocks for those few that I seldom or never change and share across all presets, like amp+cabs, compressors, noise gate, shimmer...

I mostly use them for amps and drives and always on stuff like pre/post EQ across banks of live patches. One I stopped trying to figure out how to recreate snapshots and realized copying a preset as many places as I wanted it’s virtually the same thing, full spillover, “snapshot” specific footswitches, and if I want to change the pedal board around the amps, I know the amps will still sound the same.

 

[molul]

I mostly use them for amps and drives and always on stuff like pre/post EQ across banks of live patches. One I stopped trying to figure out how to recreate snapshots and realized copying a preset as many places as I wanted it’s virtually the same thing, full spillover, “snapshot” specific footswitches, and if I want to change the pedal board around the amps, I know the amps will still sound the same.

But full spillover means losing one path, and that's a sacrifice I can't make in most of my presets.