0XI0
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what notes are in C Dorian
Can We Have a Discussion About Modes?
- Thread starter TSJMajesty
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what notes are in C Dorian
0XI0
Roadie
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that's C Major, or C Dorian. D Dorian is E F# G A B C# D E
came the rain
Groupie
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E Dorian
came the rain
Groupie
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C, D, E flat, F, G, A, B flat, C
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That's just incorrect though
If thinking about it that way makes sense for you, more power to you, but things are going to get very confusing if you converse like that because it is wrong. That said, I have plenty of my own little ways I think about certain theory aspects that are formally incorrect but serve as a shortcut in my own head
Sascha Franck
Rock Star
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I'm just writing some stuff about modes. I hope it'll help some folks along but I'm afraid it'll take a little while as it turned out to become a little essay already...
0XI0
Roadie
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C Dorian = B flat Major = B flat Ionian
JasonE
Roadie
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I am following what you are posting and appreciate seeing it. I have been planning a deep dive into this stuff and what you are posting is right along with what I already know. It is good to read that as a reminder and get the brain thinking about it.
JasonE
Roadie
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- 490
There you go.
Sascha Franck
Rock Star
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- 6,038
Correct.
And the interval formula for, say, dorian would be: 1, 2, 3-, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Sure. Obviously, all modes can exist in all keys.
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came the rain
Groupie
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Yes. Made up of the same notes.
Easy Modes of the Major Scale reference guide:
Excerpted from:
Modes of the Major Scale - Theory and Sound
Add some 'exotic' flavour to your music by exploring the modes of the major scale.
However I haven’t read the site. Though it looks promising.
Sascha Franck
Rock Star
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- 6,038
Ok, let's get a bit into modes.
As said, we won't care about others than those deriving from the major scale (maybe later). And as I'm a lazy f*ck, I will at least start the way pretty much everybody starts, namely with the modes of the C major scale (everybody doing so has led to oh-so-funny jokes such as "Hey, please play F dorian" - "But I thought F was lydian..."). I might throw in some other baseline scales for good measure.
Ok, the typical blurb first:
The main idea of modes is being able to grab pretty much each individual note of a major scale and sort of transform it into a tonic (as in "we're home here!") chord.
Note: Parts of that may derive from medieval monks singing and what not, but that's a sort of halfassed thing - but at least the names of the modes are borrowed from that kinda stuff. Just don't make the mistake and look up those monk singing things to translate it into todays meaning of modes.
So, let's take a quick look at our C major scale, goes like:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B
And guess what? Once you can play around with that a bit, you've almost mastered your first mode already. In modal lingo, the major scale is as well known as the "ionian" mode/scale.
Now, before we continue, we need to get a tad more nerdy and analyze that mode. In the end, that's what allows us to distinguish (or rather describe) a mode's character from other mode's characters.
In case of our C major (from now on also known as "ionian") scale, that'd look like (function of note in parenthesis):
C - root (1)
D - major second (2)
E - major third (3+)
F - perfect fourth (4)
G - perfect fifth (5)
A - major sixth (6)
B - major seventh (j7)
Resulting mode: C ionian (also known as major scale)
Note: You might find all sorts of symbols to specify the functions, such as #7 or 7+ for the major seventh. But life is too short to care about that for now.
If we proceed, we can do the same for each note of the scale. So let's do just that:
D - root (1)
E - major second (2)
F - minor third (3-)
G - perfect fourth (4)
A - perfect fifth (5)
B - major sixth (6)
C - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: D dorian
E - root (1)
F - minor second (b2)
G - minor third (3-)
A - perfect fourth (4)
B - perfect fifth (5)
C - minor sixth (b6)
D - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: E phrygian
F - root (1)
G - major second (2)
A - major third (3+)
B - augmented fourth (#4)
C - perfect fifth (5)
D - major sixth (6)
E - major seventh (j7)
Resulting mode: F lydian
G - root (1)
A - major second (2)
B - major third (3+)
C - perfect fourth (4)
D - perfect fifth (5)
E - major sixth (6)
F - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: G mixolydian
A - root (1)
B - major second (2)
C - minor third (3-)
D - perfect fourth (4)
E - perfect fifth (5)
F - minor sixth (b6)
G - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: A aeolian (also known as natural minor scale)
B - root (1)
C - minor second (b2)
D - minor third (3-)
E - perfect fourth (4)
F - diminished fifth (b5)
G - minor sixth (b6)
A - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: B locrian
Very important note: This is a bone dry posting that I will just leave here as is, serving as a reference. It offers pretty much zero practical value so far.
And to make matters worse: The next posting will likely be just as bone dry again. But after that, things might get interesting.
If anyone has any questions, fire away.
As said, we won't care about others than those deriving from the major scale (maybe later). And as I'm a lazy f*ck, I will at least start the way pretty much everybody starts, namely with the modes of the C major scale (everybody doing so has led to oh-so-funny jokes such as "Hey, please play F dorian" - "But I thought F was lydian..."). I might throw in some other baseline scales for good measure.
Ok, the typical blurb first:
The main idea of modes is being able to grab pretty much each individual note of a major scale and sort of transform it into a tonic (as in "we're home here!") chord.
Note: Parts of that may derive from medieval monks singing and what not, but that's a sort of halfassed thing - but at least the names of the modes are borrowed from that kinda stuff. Just don't make the mistake and look up those monk singing things to translate it into todays meaning of modes.
So, let's take a quick look at our C major scale, goes like:
C, D, E, F, G, A, B
And guess what? Once you can play around with that a bit, you've almost mastered your first mode already. In modal lingo, the major scale is as well known as the "ionian" mode/scale.
Now, before we continue, we need to get a tad more nerdy and analyze that mode. In the end, that's what allows us to distinguish (or rather describe) a mode's character from other mode's characters.
In case of our C major (from now on also known as "ionian") scale, that'd look like (function of note in parenthesis):
C - root (1)
D - major second (2)
E - major third (3+)
F - perfect fourth (4)
G - perfect fifth (5)
A - major sixth (6)
B - major seventh (j7)
Resulting mode: C ionian (also known as major scale)
Note: You might find all sorts of symbols to specify the functions, such as #7 or 7+ for the major seventh. But life is too short to care about that for now.
If we proceed, we can do the same for each note of the scale. So let's do just that:
D - root (1)
E - major second (2)
F - minor third (3-)
G - perfect fourth (4)
A - perfect fifth (5)
B - major sixth (6)
C - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: D dorian
E - root (1)
F - minor second (b2)
G - minor third (3-)
A - perfect fourth (4)
B - perfect fifth (5)
C - minor sixth (b6)
D - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: E phrygian
F - root (1)
G - major second (2)
A - major third (3+)
B - augmented fourth (#4)
C - perfect fifth (5)
D - major sixth (6)
E - major seventh (j7)
Resulting mode: F lydian
G - root (1)
A - major second (2)
B - major third (3+)
C - perfect fourth (4)
D - perfect fifth (5)
E - major sixth (6)
F - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: G mixolydian
A - root (1)
B - major second (2)
C - minor third (3-)
D - perfect fourth (4)
E - perfect fifth (5)
F - minor sixth (b6)
G - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: A aeolian (also known as natural minor scale)
B - root (1)
C - minor second (b2)
D - minor third (3-)
E - perfect fourth (4)
F - diminished fifth (b5)
G - minor sixth (b6)
A - minor seventh (7)
Resulting mode: B locrian
Very important note: This is a bone dry posting that I will just leave here as is, serving as a reference. It offers pretty much zero practical value so far.
And to make matters worse: The next posting will likely be just as bone dry again. But after that, things might get interesting.
If anyone has any questions, fire away.
Sascha Franck
Rock Star
- Messages
- 6,038
That's a pretty good chart!
Personally, I do however not exactly recommend the halftone/wholetone structuring. I think it serves little (if any) purposes, the interval quality however (which is also presented in that chart) IMO is *the* key thing to be aware of. The "quality" tab is a good one, too, as it shows the deviation from the "typical" major and minor scales (namely ionian and aeolian aka major and natural minor).
Ed DeGenaro
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,013
Well unlike major/minor the modes function with primary and secondary modal function.
Not so much tension and release like tonal music.
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Ed DeGenaro
Shredder
- Messages
- 1,013
When choosing to compose in the realms of the modes of the Ionian set, care must be taken to remain within the constraints of the current mode. While non-diatonic notes (chromatic approach tones, etc) may be used in the melody or when soloing over the changes, the majority of melody notes (and all of the harmony notes) will always be drawn from the pool of the seven diatonic notes contained in the current mode.
Modal compositions and sections (as opposed to major and “composite minor” tonal works) must clearly define the tonic chord. This is usually done by establishing the tonic before moving on to any other chord.
It is not always necessary to introduce all seven diatonic notes of a mode into the melody or harmony in order to establish its “mood”
,It is, however, imperative that the characteristic notes (one or the other of the tritone components, and usually the quality-defining third as well) be explicitly included somewhere in either the melody or harmony to firmly establish the mode’s true identity and to avoid ambiguity.
If the melody does not contain the characteristic notes of the mode in question, then the harmony is responsible for defining the quality and character of the relevant mode; and if the harmony is ambiguous, then the melody must be the defining factor.
Modal chord motions, cadences and progressions tend to be quite simple.
Often they use basic triadic structures. While 7th, 9th and even 11th chords and suspensions can also be used for color, as with all functional harmony, the most important factor is root motion.
While it is certainly possible to regard modal chords as being either “tonic or non-tonic”, not all non-tonic chords are equal.
the relative cadential strengths of the motions from the various non-tonic chords back to their tonic (and these chords’ uses in modal progressions).
In major and “composite minor” tonal progressions, the chord with the strongest need to resolve to the tonic is called the “dominant” and is built off the fifth degree of the scale.
In modal progressions, the chords that strongly need to resolve to the tonic are sometimes called “modal dominants”, but they are usually not built off the fifth degree.
And Aeolian is a minor mode not a minor key
In that case you end up with a composite.
Chords come largely from harmonic and melodic minor in order to have that V-i dominant to tonic relationship.
Modal compositions and sections (as opposed to major and “composite minor” tonal works) must clearly define the tonic chord. This is usually done by establishing the tonic before moving on to any other chord.
It is not always necessary to introduce all seven diatonic notes of a mode into the melody or harmony in order to establish its “mood”
,It is, however, imperative that the characteristic notes (one or the other of the tritone components, and usually the quality-defining third as well) be explicitly included somewhere in either the melody or harmony to firmly establish the mode’s true identity and to avoid ambiguity.
If the melody does not contain the characteristic notes of the mode in question, then the harmony is responsible for defining the quality and character of the relevant mode; and if the harmony is ambiguous, then the melody must be the defining factor.
Modal chord motions, cadences and progressions tend to be quite simple.
Often they use basic triadic structures. While 7th, 9th and even 11th chords and suspensions can also be used for color, as with all functional harmony, the most important factor is root motion.
While it is certainly possible to regard modal chords as being either “tonic or non-tonic”, not all non-tonic chords are equal.
the relative cadential strengths of the motions from the various non-tonic chords back to their tonic (and these chords’ uses in modal progressions).
In major and “composite minor” tonal progressions, the chord with the strongest need to resolve to the tonic is called the “dominant” and is built off the fifth degree of the scale.
In modal progressions, the chords that strongly need to resolve to the tonic are sometimes called “modal dominants”, but they are usually not built off the fifth degree.
And Aeolian is a minor mode not a minor key
In that case you end up with a composite.
Chords come largely from harmonic and melodic minor in order to have that V-i dominant to tonic relationship.
Last edited:
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I can't help but think of modal playing, although I try to throw chromatic notes in there when it doesn't seem obvious. It's probably from the early years of listening to Satch and Vai, Beck and Santana -- they have/had something where they stood out from the typical blues or blues rock foundations. I think a lot of that is in their modal, melodic voicing -- technique aside. I tend to naturally hover around Dorian and Mixolydian, and Blues scale kinda thing, but I like to throw in some Lydian vibes through a change, a short Diminished scale or Whole tone, etc.
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