Can We Have a Discussion About Modes?

[woody]

In music, we mostly don't use all the 12 notes all the time. We limit our palette of tones.

Modes are a couple of suggestions of palettes that work. They all have their flavors and they all lead to different results.
They all contain notes that are consonant, and they all contain notes that have tension.
That characteristic play of tension and release is what makes modes distinct.

There's a lot of historistic yadda yadda about church modes and greek tribes, which id fine for playing Trivial Pursuit. For playing music that's all completely irrelevant.
When it comes to application, it really comes done to organization of tension and release relative to a perceived root note.

 

[cragginshred]

Going linear sort of explains my question of -Am I still in Dorian (any mode) when I shift to the position above or below???
The modes sit together like a chess puzzle which only makes it more confusing.

For example Play a Mixolydian, right next to it it fits a the next mode -can't recall the name right now. If I dabble in/out of the next position am I still in mixolydian?

The absolute worst examples are when you see fragments of scales on their own and then no where does anyone EVER explain how to stay in any mode up and down the neck

 

[0XI0]

Am I still in Dorian (any mode) when I shift to the position above or below???

If I dabble in/out of the next position am I still in mixolydian?

what you call it is only contextual i think, based on what's going on around u

C Aeolian = A minor

C Ionian = A Phrygian (C Major)

 

[came the rain]

For example Play a Mixolydian, right next to it it fits a the next mode -can't recall the name right now. If I dabble in/out of the next position am I still in mixolydian?

Depends on what’s going on around your note selection and whether you shift the tonal center. All the modes are just comprised of the notes within the major scale they’re associated with the difference being the interval structure and the chords that arise from the modes related to them.

So if you shift over during the solo it’s going to boil down to the underlying chords, the emphasis, and resolution whether things have changed or not.

The scales/modes occur over the entire fretboard wherever the notes are available.

 

[Gothi]

AN INTRODUCTION TO MODES - PIXIE VERSION

MODES
Once upon a time way back in history there was a man who invented the piano. There it stood right in front of him. He and others sat down every evening and glared at it for centuries, until one of them said “Hey, why don´t we try to play it?”. “GREAT IDEA!!!” said the others. However, the piano had both white and black keys, and the white ones looked more beautiful and were more easy to hit. So for many centuries to come musicians played all the white keys. However, one day someone came up with an even greater idea: “Why the frigging, flying fck don´t we play the black keys too?”, he said. Then they began to play the black keys too, and life went on. Now, for some unknown reason someone named music made with white keys “modal” and that with black keys too “tonal” as if the former is atonal. What a drunken idiot, especially because many thought music made with black keys too sounded like sht. We shall not call it that.

Conclusion of the day:

So basically; if you make music with the white keys only, you are making MODAL music. If you use the black keys too, you are making TON…no, I mean…I dunno…jazz or something. Who gives a fck anyway?

Have a nice day
Gothi

 

[Gothi]

Basically, modes:

Scales + common practise of how to use them = modes
A scale itself is just like an alphabet, you can write anything with it, including a lot of BS, but a mode is like a genre, there are recipes when using them, a form, a structure, habits, principles and restrictions, which reflects the musical styles of their time. The rules of modes may change, e.g. how you use the lydian scale in Church music vs jazz, but the idea is that not anything goes, there are principles to follow to achieve a sound, e.g. that of renaissance polyphony.

Church modes are the most well known and founded modes.

Not all those on the piano are used frequently in Western music, e.g. Locrian has a diminished fifth and thus no working tonic. Yet you may hear some moves in techno, goa and industrial basses.

The phrygian mode, ditto, you need to go to spain, eastern europe or middle east to find its most frequent uses.

Aeolian and mixolydian are pretty nordic sounding, mainly because the seventh degree is major, which works perfectly as both a destination for modulation and as cadance VII-i or VII-I.

Lydian is called the film music mode because there seemingly are some famous scores written in this.

Dorian is a preferred minor mode in many classical works and in church music.

Ionian and aeolian are our standard major and minor.

However, we have also practise attached to our use of scales today, e.g. raising the seventh degree of an aeolian or mixolydian scale to get a major dominant V-i or V-I at end points (cadences) and a lead tone from the dominant’s third to tonic of the mode. These are thus chromatic alterations of the original modes. These alterations were key points in going from the modal era to the tonal era of music. Originally, you would not alter a mode, but stick to the harmonies within it. Neither would you modulate or transpose outside the key. You could change a mode from e.g. phrygian to dorian, but you would remain at same root note, the tonic, and not transpose to another key.

Here are some examples of uses of different modes within the framework of older folk and classical music:

1. Phrygian



2. Mode shift on same root note: Phrygian - Mixolydian - Phrygian - Mixolydian



3. Mode shift with tranposition: Aeolian - Phrygian - Aeolian (also meter shift from 6/8 to 4/4 and back again). I addition this tune is multi-modal because there are phrygian moves in the bass in the A part while the melodies are aeolian with same root note.


Kindly
Gothi

 

[cragginshred]

Basically, modes:

Scales + common practise of how to use them = modes
A scale itself is just like an alphabet, you can write anything with it, including a lot of BS, but a mode is like a genre, there are recipes when using them, a form, a structure, habits, principles and restrictions, which reflects the musical styles of their time. The rules of modes may change, e.g. how you use the lydian scale in Church music vs jazz, but the idea is that not anything goes, there are principles to follow to achieve a sound, e.g. that of renaissance polyphony.

Church modes are the most well known and founded modes.

Not all those on the piano are used frequently in Western music, e.g. Locrian has a diminished fifth and thus no working dominant. Yet you may hear some moves in techno, goa and industrial basses.

The phrygian mode, ditto, you need to go to spain, eastern europe or middle east to find its most frequent uses.

Aeolian and mixolydian are pretty nordic sounding, mainly because the seventh degree is major, which works perfectly as both a destination for modulation and as cadance VII-i or VII-I.

Lydian is called the film music mode because there seemingly are some famous scores written in this.

Dorian is a preferred minor mode in many classical works and in church music.

Ionian and aeolian are our standard major and minor.

However, we have also practise attached to our use of scales today, e.g. raising the seventh degree of an aeolian or mixolydian scale to get a major dominant V-i or V-I at end points (cadences) and a lead tone from the dominant’s third to tonic of the mode. These are thus chromatic alterations of the original modes. These alterations were key points in going from the modal era to the tonal era of music. Originally, you would not alter a mode, but stick to the harmonies within it. Neither would you modulate or transpose outside the key. You could change a mode from e.g. phrygian to dorian, but you would remain at same root note, the tonic, and not transpose to another key.

Here are some examples of uses of different modes within the framework of older folk and classical music:

1. Phrygian



2. Mode shift on same root note: Phrygian - Mixolydian - Phrygian - Mixolydian



3. Mode shift with tranposition: Aeolian - Phrygian - Aeolian (also meter shift from 6/8 to 4/4 and back again). I addition this tune is multi-modal because there are phrygian moves in the bass in the A part while the melodies are aeolian with same root note.


Kindly
Gothi

Nice general overview.

The confusion remains, how can Mixolydian at the 12 fret remain the same mode at the 7th or 3rd fret.
Let see an example? Someone share a video explaining the mode staying the same up and down the neck!

Who will accept this challenge?

 

[came the rain]

C Aeolian = A minor

C Ionian = A Phrygian (C Major)

E flat Ionian/C minor

C Ionian/E Phrygian/A minor

Aeolian and mixolydian are pretty nordic sounding, mainly because the seventh degree is major

Sure about that?

 

[Gothi]

Nice general overview.

The confusion remains, how can Mixolydian at the 12 fret remain the same mode at the 7th or 3rd fret.
Let see an example? Someone share a video explaining the mode staying the same up and down the neck!

Who will accept this challenge?

Thanks. I am not sure I understand your question, but I know nothing of frets. Keys and percussions I can manage. Either you have a mixolydian scale or not when you transpose the root. In half steps from tonic mixolydian is 221221(2) If not at certain frets, no mixolydian mode either.

Kindly
Gothi

 

[Gothi]

Sure about that?

As a scandinavian I am more than sure, mate. It is the basis of our folk music. Or maybe you meant whether I am sure the seventh degree in aeolian and mixolydian is a major triad? That should be easy. Take aeolian from A and the 7th degree is a G major 2 half steps from tonic. Take mixolydian from G and the 7th degree is a F major 2 half steps from tonic, right?

 

[came the rain]

As a scandinavian I am more than sure, mate. It is the basis of our folk music. Or maybe you meant whether I am sure the seventh degree in aeolian and mixolydian is a major triad? That should be easy. Take aeolian from A and the 7th degree is a G major 2 half steps from tonic. Take mixolydian from G and the 7th degree is a F major 2 half steps from tonic, right?

What happens when you add the seventh to the triads….

 

[Gothi]

What happens when you add the seventh to the triads….

You don´t add sevenths to triads in the folk music i refer to, you dissolve them into triads. I am not talking about chord extensions, but functional chord analysis where the triad that arises on the seventh degree, that means with the seventh degree as root note, is a major chord two half steps from tonic, which in a cadence would be written VII-I (major tonic), e.g. F-G or VII-i (minor tonic), e.g. G-Am, which both are widely used in nordic folk music. Be careful not to mix it up. Adding a 7th to e.g. A minor (G) is not the same as modulating to the triad arising on 7h degree and back.

 

[came the rain]

You don´t add sevenths to triads in the folk music i refer to, you dissolve them into triads. I am not talking about chord extensions, but functional chord analysis where the triad that arise on the seventh degree, that means with the seventh degree as root note, is a major chord two half steps from tonic, which in a cadence would be written VII-I (major tonic), e.g. F-G or VII-i (minor tonic), e.g. G-Am, which both are widely used in nordic folk music. Be careful not to mix it up. Adding a 7th to e.g. A minor (G) is not the same as modulating to the triad arising on 7h degree and back.

ie; within E minor seventh degree being D being the 5th degree of G major. Got it. I think in relation to the OP it’s easier to think in term of Mixolydian being Dominant and Locrian being Diminished in relation to the modes in relation to chord building in relation to the scale degrees related to the relative major.

 

[Gothi]

ie; within E minor seventh degree being D being the 5th degree of G major. Got it. I think in relation to the OP it’s easier to think in term of Mixolydian being Dominant and Locrian being Diminished in relation to the modes in relation to chord building in relation to the scale degrees related to the relative major.

There is a general problem cross thinking modes. They were originally considered closed systems, not suited for transpositions. Therefore you would really not think mixolydian as the fifth degree of ionian as if they were sonically related somehow, but rather see them as two completely different relations of notes and triads. I am not sure what you mean by mixolydian being dominant. In which context?

 

[0XI0]

E flat Ionian/A minor

C Ionian/E Phrygian/A minor

I'm confused, for line 1, no matter what note it starts on, ionian is the base major scale, Eb Ionian would be Eb-F-G-Ab (Do-Re-Mi-Fa, whole-whole-half). A minor would be all white keys

for line 2, E Phrygian would be "major scale starting on Mi", E-F-G-A-B-C (Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do, Half-whole-whole-whole-half), that's A minor and makes sense to me

I thought it would make more sense to say a key center, then the mode would just describe where you are in that key center. but I guess the "correct" way is to say a note, then the mode describes what pattern you're using from that note, regardless of key. maybe it's both idk, the second visualization of how to think of modes as all these possible independent genome fractals branching off of every individual note seems wildly and unnecessarily complicated unless you were just deliberately using it for music theory hypertrophy

 

[PLX]

unless you were just deliberately using it for music theory hypertrophy

 

[FuzzyAce]

I like the chromatic mode.



Everything works at some point.

 

[came the rain]

I am not sure what you mean by mixolydian being dominant. In which context?

Dominant 7th chord.

 

[came the rain]

I'm confused, for line 1, no matter what note it starts on, ionian is the base major scale, Eb Ionian would be Eb-F-G-Ab (Do-Re-Mi-Fa, whole-whole-half). A minor would be all white keys

Sorry typo. E flat/C minor

 

[came the rain]

I thought it would make more sense to say a key center, then the mode would just describe where you are in that key center. but I guess the "correct" way is to say a note, then the mode describes what pattern you're using from that note, regardless of key. maybe it's both idk, the second visualization of how to think of modes as all these possible independent genome fractals branching off of every individual note seems wildly and unnecessarily complicated unless you were just deliberately using it for music theory hypertrophy

I think whatever works is fine. I’m not sure what is considered the “correct” way of looking at it. I mainly play be ear, and just trying to share some different ways of conceptualizing things.