Can We Have a Discussion About Modes?

[HomespunEffects]

I don't really understand them.
I mean, I get that Aeolian is the minor equivalent of a major scale, but if they have the same notes, what is it about playing one vs. the other?

And I'm sure I can google it, but I'm more looking for how you guys understand them, and use them, in context. (Which I can probably google also, but would rather get a discussion here. Just sayin'.)

There are differences in where the dom7 and Maj7 and min7 chords are. But in reality modes don’t really differ except where the progression resolves toward.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For a start, let's talk the major scale modes (there's modes deriving from other scales, too, but the most common ones derive from the major scale).

Now, what you may still find in many articles, lessons, videos and what not on that subject, is things like that: "D dorian is the C major scale played from D to D". There couldn't be greater nonsense. In case you have a nice C major chord and play a C major scale starting from D and going up an octave to the next D, you're still in C major! So, once you read that kinda thing as an explanation, continue elsewhere, delete the bookmark, write hate comments, etc.

Ok, looking at a mode like that does have its purposes, but they're strictly analytical, nothing else. Simply because you analyze each mode from its root.

Whatever, the definition should rather be: When you play a C major scale in a "D context" (ideally a D minor context, but a drone D note would do), your entering dorian territory!

The same goes for all the other modes. They're superimposing a major scale over a scale degree root which is supposed to be established as a kind of tonic chord on its own.

In case anyone's interested how to actually internalize this kinda stuff (which isn't really tough), I'd happily continue, need to prepare some food for the kids now.

 

[Devin]

I only fuck with beast mode

 

[0XI0]

Now, what you may still find in many articles, lessons, videos and what not on that subject, is things like that: "D dorian is the C major scale played from D to D". There couldn't be greater nonsense. In case you have a nice C major chord and play a C major scale starting from D and going up an octave to the next D, you're still in C major!

that's what never made sense to me calling that D Dorian starting on D with a Dorian pattern, you're still in C, it's C Dorian. Key center + location. D Dorian would start on E note, in the KEY of D Major

 

[Gothi]

Dominant 7th chord.

This is again an extended chord, dominant by name, but not function unless it is the 5th triad in a mode to which a flat 7th is added. The dominant (as in tonic, subdominant, dominant) is usually the chord arising on the fifth degree of a scale. This cold be a dominant 7th chord, but not all modes have flat 7th for the dominant, e.g. F lydian´s dominant is C major, which has a major 7 within the mode, so using 7 chord as dominant (5th degree) only works in modes where a flat 7th can be added to the dominant.

Extented chords, e.g. tetrads (four tone chords), were used much later than triads were in the original modes and are not necessary for understanding triadic dominants, which the term "dominant" usually refers too. In Jazz, modes are expressed in tetrads, including tonic, subdominant and dominant, but they did not make much of that during the renaissance.

 

[HomespunEffects]

For a start, let's talk the major scale modes (there's modes deriving from other scales, too, but the most common ones derive from the major scale).

Now, what you may still find in many articles, lessons, videos and what not on that subject, is things like that: "D dorian is the C major scale played from D to D". There couldn't be greater nonsense. In case you have a nice C major chord and play a C major scale starting from D and going up an octave to the next D, you're still in C major! So, once you read that kinda thing as an explanation, continue elsewhere, delete the bookmark, write hate comments, etc.

Ok, looking at a mode like that does have its purposes, but they're strictly analytical, nothing else. Simply because you analyze each mode from its root.

Whatever, the definition should rather be: When you play a C major scale in a "D context" (ideally a D minor context, but a drone D note would do), your entering dorian territory!

The same goes for all the other modes. They're superimposing a major scale over a scale degree root which is supposed to be established as a kind of tonic chord on its own.

In case anyone's interested how to actually internalize this kinda stuff (which isn't really tough), I'd happily continue, need to prepare some food for the kids now.

I guess you could just play a scale over a drone/chord but in the context of a song, it depends on where you put the tension and resolution.

 

[Sascha Franck]

D Dorian would start on E note, in the KEY of D Major

What? Sorry but no.

 

[mbenigni]

I like the chromatic mode.



Everything works at some point.

The broken clock method!

 

[Sascha Franck]

I guess you could just play a scale over a drone/chord but in the context of a song, it depends on where you put the tension and resolution.

Of course. But to get into modes, it's a pretty decent idea to look at them in a pretty much isolated context.

Also, ideally, you'd compare all modes from the same root note. In other words: Comparing C ionian to D dorian is sort of useless because the ionian character will likely be so much internalized that your brain might not be able to establish the D as a sort of tonicized character on its own.

 

[spawnofthesith]

I interpreted what he was saying was how he thinks the modes SHOULD be called

 

[came the rain]

Also, ideally, you'd compare all modes from the same root note.

Pitch axis.

 

[HomespunEffects]

Of course. But to get into modes, it's a pretty decent idea to look at them in a pretty much isolated context.

Also, ideally, you'd compare all modes from the same root note. In other words: Comparing C ionian to D dorian is sort of useless because the ionian character will likely be so much internalized that your brain might not be able to establish the D as a sort of tonicized character on its own.

Yeah, but that’s what causes confusion about them. I believe it’s better to explain the purpose rather than the technique.

What i mean is if you say “you can write a song with this progression and this chord leads to this one” means more than “play these notes over a chord”.

I could be wrong though.

 

[came the rain]

Yeah, but that’s what causes confusion about them. I believe it’s better to explain the purpose rather than the technique.

What i mean is if you say “you can write a song with this progression and this chord leads to this one” means more than “play these notes over a chord”.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Sascha Franck]

What i mean is say “you can write a song with this progression” means more than play these notes over a chord.

There's benefits to both approaches. Besides, some modes (especially lydian and locrian) don't lend much to any functional chord progressions, so they're usually in fact used in a rather strict modal fashion.

 

[HomespunEffects]

BTW, I’m not saying

You’re right. I was just addressing the part about it being confusing.

 

[HomespunEffects]

There's benefits to both approaches. Besides, some modes (especially lydian and locrian) don't lend much to any functional chord progressions, so they're usually in fact used in a rather strict modal fashion.

Yep, and even if you are writing in a mode you better watch what you’re using. If you’re in D Dorian with D as the i and lay down the VII or v our ear is going to think we’re in major or minor. Best to avoid them or make them very quick.

 

[Gothi]

To clarify some concepts discussed here (no need for names). Let us try with an example:

I start in Ionian, six bars in C, 4/4. However on the 7th and 8th bar I modulate root and chord to the subdominant, which is F major, and then I repeat the figure. Now we know that F major in an Ionian scale corresponds to the lydian mode. Does this mean that whatever melody was played in the last two bars are lydian, while the first six bars were ionian? NO it does not, because your memory will still stick to the original root (C) and expect the last two chords to return to this as tonic, so your base is still C and not F. However, if you stay long enough at the subdominant, your memory will eventually forget the tonic you came from and create a feeling of a new root note, and then you would be in lydian. It all depends on which note rules the tonic.

 

[0XI0]

you may still find in many articles, lessons, videos and what not on that subject, is things like that: "D dorian is the C major scale played from D to D". There couldn't be greater nonsense. In case you have a nice C major chord and play a C major scale starting from D and going up an octave to the next D, you're still in C major!

"D Dorian is the C Major scale played from D to D" ... is not true. that's C Dorian. correct.

D Dorian would start on E note, in the KEY of D Major

What? Sorry but no.

D Dorian is the D Major scale played from E to E... is not true? D Major played from E to E, is D Dorian. just like above. Key center + start point = mode

 

[Sascha Franck]

"D Dorian is the C Major scale played from D to D" ... is not true. that's C Dorian. correct.

No, the C major scale played from D to D is still C major. It could become D dorian in a D (minor) context, but it can never become C dorian.

 

[spawnofthesith]

D Dorian = D E F G A B C D