Boss GM-800 and GK-5

[Sascha Franck]

May I ask, have you ever created from scratch your own new patches in a complex synth like ZenCore or even a simple one like a MiniMoog?

Yes, I have. More than once. And in even more complexed synths, such as Zebra 2.

Much, if not almost all, of what you are hoping for isn't available within these synths and that has nothing to do with MIDI.

In Zebra (or Alchemy, or Absynth, or Kontakt (to also include a sampler), etcetcetc., everything I am "hoping" for is there. Anything can be modulated.

Look at the knobs, switches, and controls on this MiniMoog and consider where the desired guitar-centric applications may be applied. There isn't much realistically to go with at the end of the line that isn't already available without all that guitar stuff.

Well, seriously, at least the Minimoog is a very basic synth given it's options (can't tell about the Zencore as it doesn't show the cobtrol tab. You should look into somewhat more complexed ones before telling me the things I'm "hoping" for aren't there. Because they are.

Point is, what can be done within a synth already exist with current tools.

But that's not the point at all. The point is, that the data these synths could deal with isn't extracted from your guitar playing (or extracted in a sort of "wrong" way). And that's all I have been saying from the beginning of this "discussion". It's absolutely proveable, too. Guitar-to-MIDI so far is an extremely limiting technology. Can it still be very useful? Of course (and I never said anything else). Could it still be vastly improved? Perhaps (it won't happen too likely, though, super niche market and all that...).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Let me give you an example of how limited Guitar-to-MIDI is:
Load the best (as in most realistic/authentic) sampled (or physically modeled, or hybrid...) guitar patch you have access to into your favourite sampler/synth. Now play that patch through a Guitar-to-MIDI system. Does it feel even *remotely* like playing a real guitar? The very clear answer is: No, it doesn't, not at all.

So why is that? It's likely not an issue of the receiving side, as those highly complexed newer libraries come with tons of CC support, key switches and what not. Maybe they're even coming with aftertouch support. Or, yet one step further, with MPE support, so you could simulate double bends, individual vibrato per note in a chord and what not.
And still, all that won't even remotely get you more realistic results as soon as you're using a Guitar-to-MIDI system to control it. You might be able to use some expression pedals but that was it already. Keyswitches, aftertouch, MPE? Nada (oh, you could use keyswitches - at the expense of having to adjust your playing yet some more). And at the same time, a lot of the things you might do naturally on a guitar will be lost.
A well trained keyboarder however will likely be able to get a pretty realistic sounding guitar performance out of that guitar patch/library. Go figure (or don't...).

 

[JiveTurkey]

I wish Fractal made guitar synths.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I wish Fractal made guitar synths.

They could at least try to take something the SY-300/1000 tech (not necessarily requiring a hex pickup) further

 

[JiveTurkey]

They could at least try to take something the SY-300/1000 tech (not necessarily requiring a hex pickup) further

The synth sounds and effects in the box are STELLAR. Not polyphonic and there are certainly glitches no matter how careful you are with your technique. It's just as much about a company that is constantly improving and refining vs. well; Boss.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Fwiw, personally, I'm really only interested in polyphonic synth stuff. When it comes to leads, I'm absolutely fine with what guitars through whatever FX have on offer, but I really wish there'd be some more well working oddball chord sounds I could add to my arsenal. Unfortunatley, I'm afraid that for the really interesting things it'd still take a hex pickup to truly peak my interest (as in spending serious money).

And fwiw #2: In my world, none of that involves MIDI at all. I think of Guitar-to-MIDI as something extremely useful for some things, but for real playing, I vastly prefer the SY approach, as in actually using the string signal (and all of it's warts) as a source sound.

 

[TJontheRoad]

Let me give you an example of how limited Guitar-to-MIDI is:
Load the best (as in most realistic/authentic) sampled (or physically modeled, or hybrid...) guitar patch you have access to into your favourite sampler/synth. Now play that patch through a Guitar-to-MIDI system. Does it feel even *remotely* like playing a real guitar? The very clear answer is: No, it doesn't, not at all.

So why is that? It's likely not an issue of the receiving side, as those highly complexed newer libraries come with tons of CC support, key switches and what not. Maybe they're even coming with aftertouch support. Or, yet one step further, with MPE support, so you could simulate double bends, individual vibrato per note in a chord and what not.
And still, all that won't even remotely get you more realistic results as soon as you're using a Guitar-to-MIDI system to control it. You might be able to use some expression pedals but that was it already. Keyswitches, aftertouch, MPE? Nada (oh, you could use keyswitches - at the expense of having to adjust your playing yet some more). And at the same time, a lot of the things you might do naturally on a guitar will be lost.
A well trained keyboarder however will likely be able to get a pretty realistic sounding guitar performance out of that guitar patch/library. Go figure (or don't...).

Personally, I would not use a guitar synth to emulate a guitar. That's why I have a guitar(s) for that use. Which is part of the circular discussion we are having here :)

I may wish to try that with a synth and a controller like Marco Parisi who does a petty good Hendrix on the Seaboard Rise (that guy is incredible).


MPE, or at least an equivalent of MPE, is already possible with guitar synths that transmit individual MIDI channels per string like the SY-1000. I demo'd that in this video with the SY-1000 and Hydrasynth. The receiving MPE synth reacts is if the SY-1000 is sending MPE data because each string send in it's own channel.



I also used MPE with the SY-1000 and GS Music e7 in this video.



The GM-800 doesn't do individual MIDI channels per string though. This actually helps it's MIDI tracking because the data stream is much less.

 

[TJontheRoad]

I wish Fractal made guitar synths.

Fractal's synth block oscillators and filter block sound terrible IMO. Let them stick to guitar stuff.

 

[BROCKSTAR]

A well trained keyboarder however will likely be able to get a pretty realistic sounding guitar performance out of that guitar patch/library

Nah, I have never heard a keyboard player play like a guitar player either. No matter how good the sample. It's stiff and dull sounding when they do it.

However I have heard guitar players play keyboard leads just as good or better...

 

[Sascha Franck]

Personally, I would not use a guitar synth to emulate a guitar. That's why I have a guitar(s) for that use. Which is part of the circular discussion we are having here

I was not saying that anyone should actually do this to use it in whatever musical context - it was just to demonstrate how much is getting lost during the Guitar-to-MIDI translation. I would never even think about triggering a guitar patch with whatever GTM device to actually use it.

MPE, or at least an equivalent of MPE, is already possible with guitar synths that transmit individual MIDI channels per string like the SY-1000.

That's not exactly MPE but just multitimbral performance (which obviously is one of the subsets of MPE, coming along with the additional comfort of not having to deal with 6 separated synth instances). Has been possible around 30 years ago already.

The GM-800 doesn't do individual MIDI channels per string though.

That's not true, in the manual it says this:

This actually helps it's MIDI tracking because the data stream is much less.

I absolutely doubt that. As said, sending the data for each string on a dedicated MIDI channel was possible almost 30 years ago already. Tracking is solely depending on the quality of your GK pickup, its adjustment and the algorithm used inside the GTM circuitry - which is processing each string separately anyway. Sending things out through one channel (poly) or through individual ones (mono) is done after all that. And if at all, it might improve tracking, simply because instead of using one polyphonic receiving device, you could use 6 monophonic ones. Which would likely result in a much cleaner performance. At least that's my very own experience.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Nah, I have never heard a keyboard player play like a guitar player either. No matter how good the sample. It's stiff and dull sounding when they do it.

I don't disagree. But running a guitar patch triggered by a Guitar-to-MIDI device will usually result in even less authentic performances.

However I have heard guitar players play keyboard leads just as good or better...

Leads aren't much of an issue anyway, unless you're doing a lot of double bends and such - in that case you may want to think about a multitimbral receiving synth. Pretty easy to do with, say, Kontakt.

 

[BROCKSTAR]

Ok so if leads aren't much of an issue on synth guitar in general, and pads and chording stuff are definitely not an issue on synth guitars, so what is the issue lol.

I'm so confused by this run around conversation lol.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Ok so if leads aren't much of an issue on synth guitar in general, and pads and chording stuff are definitely not an issue on synth guitars, so what is the issue lol.

I actually said pretty much exactly the opposite.

Fwiw, personally, I'm really only interested in polyphonic synth stuff. When it comes to leads, I'm absolutely fine with what guitars through whatever FX have on offer, but I really wish there'd be some more well working oddball chord sounds I could add to my arsenal. Unfortunatley, I'm afraid that for the really interesting things it'd still take a hex pickup to truly peak my interest (as in spending serious money).

 

[LScottK]

The Triple Play is garbage.

I'm genuinely surprised to see this comment. I have the Triple Play and SY1000/GM800/GR55. I don't use the Triple Play software (which, if that's what you're talking about, I agree is garbage). But as a pitch to midi converter, I find it works great. And it interfaces really well with all of the VSTi plugins that I have, which has a great deal more variety than what I find in Roland guitar synths. Do you feel that the tracking is lacking? Curious what doesn't work for you . . .

 

[LScottK]

I wish Fractal made guitar synths.

I agree

I also wish that Fractal would buy SIM1 and integrate their guitar emulation technology into the next version of the AxeFX.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I wish FAS would make multiple excellent pasta dishes, too. That way I possibly wouldn't have to head over the kitchen now.

 

[JiveTurkey]

I'm genuinely surprised to see this comment. I have the Triple Play and SY1000/GM800/GR55. I don't use the Triple Play software (which, if that's what you're talking about, I agree is garbage). But as a pitch to midi converter, I find it works great. And it interfaces really well with all of the VSTi plugins that I have, which has a great deal more variety than what I find in Roland guitar synths. Do you feel that the tracking is lacking? Curious what doesn't work for you . . .

Hyperbole from me aside; it's supposedly a great tool for recording. As a live tool; I tried it once and it failed either the first or second song in. It got sold immediately because of that.

 

[LScottK]

Hyperbole from me aside; it's supposedly a great tool for recording. As a live tool; I tried it once and it failed either the first or second song in. It got sold immediately because of that.

Yeah, reliability is key. It must have been a royal PITA to finish the gig.

 

[LScottK]

I wish FAS would make multiple excellent pasta dishes, too. That way I possibly wouldn't have to head over the kitchen now.

SIM1 is Italian. Fractal is from New Hampshire USA. Making pasta should be included in the intellectual property rights if Fractal buys SIM1. So I think we're good.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Yeah, reliability is key. It must have been a royal PITA to finish the gig.

It worked fine for a practice or two. First gig with it and it went dumb. I ended up just using an octave pedal for the parts the rest of the night.