Boss GM-800 and GK-5

[Sascha Franck]

Taking Sascha off of Ignore briefly to see what he’s bitching about this time is like trying to bite into a Gobstopper with a cavity-filled tooth.

Where exactly am I bitching about anything? I was posting some factual things. If you think that's bitching, you better quickly put me on ignore again. And that's rather your loss than mine.

 

[JiveTurkey]

What's the actual point you're arguing about though?

 

[Sascha Franck]

What's the actual point you're arguing about though?

Personally, I'm not arguing about anything. And I never did in this thread. I was just pointing out a handful of things inherent to the Guitar-to-MIDI world. No access points to even turn this into any kind of argument.

 

[BROCKSTAR]

or synth, or both... but geez!

 

[Sascha Franck]

Not really. You’ve yet to provide anything of value.

Maybe you need to learn reading. I have provided the reasons/explanations why Guitar-to-MIDI doesn't work all that well and posted some links covering the relevant parts of MIDI history.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Sounds like it’s not for you then. Move along.

It's every bit for me. I own a GTM system since my Atari days. And I never said it was not for me. All I did was to (and fwiw, quite sufficiently at that) explain why guitar playing doesn't translate to MIDI even half as nicely as a keyboard. Practical and historical evidence included.

 

[Trollbait]

Isn’t that what the SY-1000 is? Except that it doesn’t have piano sounds or whatever

The SY1000 is great for harmonically restructuring the guitar strings into synth tones (with the exception of the oscillator synth which seems to be a triggered sample wave form hence it's poor tracking results).

However

Roland could have adapted that same sort of technology (it's already out there) to model acoustic instruments like piano, sax, cello, glockenspiel, bagpipes etc but no, Roland chose once again to repackage a 1990s GR 50 guitar synth. Except they moved the AD converter to the guitar, which pretty much made obsolete 13 pin gear. Then they marketed for our cash a 13 pin adapter and more patches and samples. And for some reason guitar players lapped it up as the next best great thing.

But the underlying fact is nothing is really improved beyond what was already out there.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Were we confused why pick scrapes, dive bombs and pinch harmonics don't translate to MIDI?

 

[Sascha Franck]

It works quite well.

Within certain boundaries. Which I explained. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry it doesn’t work for you.

See above, it does. Within certain boundaries. Which I explained. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don’t seem to understand what anyone in this thread is getting at, which isn’t surprising, but it is tiresome.

I perfectly understand that. Also, some people seem to at least appreciate the things I wrote. You might feel free to talk outta your ***, though, it's a free forum.

 

[Trollbait]

Sloppy playing is somehow ok on guitar A guitar synth exposes these weaknesses in a player

When I hear GM800 P2M tracking error from technically proficient players I don't believe your statement is entirely true. In one of the GM800 YT, one such technically proficient guitar player stated that the tracking errors are still there.

The point is they don't have to be with current DSP modeling technically available in software.

Supporting Roland's product repackaging market strategy doesn't help get us a hardware guitar synth that can accurately model acoustic instruments and actually works for everyone.

 

[BROCKSTAR]

But the underlying fact is nothing is really improved beyond what was already out there.

I disagree. The sounds / samples in the gm-800 are far beyond better then anything roland / boss has done. Definitely not the same sounds as the gr-55 or older ones. Also name me one of roland / boss guitar synths where you can layer 4 parts? So I think those are big improvements?

 

[JiveTurkey]

What's the target audience size for a box like this? Super shocking that Boss would repackage something.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Nice edit, @Trollbait. He said I was talking out of my ass. I responded in kind.

Bait...taken...?

 

[Sascha Franck]

and yet you continue to argue

I did not argue. I explained some things. Maybe you should look up the difference between the two.

 

[Trollbait]

What's the target audience size for a box like this? Super shocking that Boss would repackage something.

The target audience is we who are attracted to bright shiny objects and support the repackaging marketing strategy in the hope that it actually works this time.

That used to be me BTW, but I now understand that if I keep supporting that marketing strategy, it will just keep happening. We will just keep getting repackaged 90s technology.

 

[TJontheRoad]

Were we confused why pick scrapes, dive bombs and pinch harmonics don't translate to MIDI?

I'm only confused why anyone would want these translated via MIDI or anything else for that matter???

 

[Trollbait]

Nice edit, @Trollbait. He said I was talking out of my ass. I responded in kind.

That's why I removed my post and I didn't want to seem like I was attacking you.

But the point I made in that removed post point stands.

When we use online personal attacks, it refects our character and not the character of the person we are attacking.

I thought personal attacks were a hallmark of TOP, which is why I left TOP and vguitarforums (although I still read the very informative technical information there at V).

 

[TJontheRoad]

When I hear GM800 P2M tracking error from technically proficient players I don't believe your statement is entirely true. In one of the GM800 YT, one such technically proficient guitar player stated that the tracking errors are still there.

The point is they don't have to be with current DSP modeling technically available in software.

Supporting Roland's product repackaging market strategy doesn't help get us a hardware guitar synth that can accurately model acoustic instruments and actually works for everyone.

Proficient guitar playing doesn't always mean clean playing.

Roland has never created a ZenCore based guitar synth prior to the GM-800. ZenCore tech has been around for years but not for guitarist.

 

[Trollbait]

What's your solution then?

I've only recently learned that acoustic modeling technology is available in software.

I would have purchased the gm800 if it had that technology. I already have a GR50 that works well enough for its internal pcm sample snippets. But it does have one of the better Roland P2M to trigger external midi synthesizers.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I'm only confused why anyone would want these translated via MIDI or anything else for that matter???

Because they're part of the guitar's articulation vocabulary.
Not that they'd make much sense all the time - but it also doesn't have to be the full enchilada. On a smaller scale, slurs and double bends are pretty much the same thing - and yes, in case it was possible, I defenitely wouldn't want these to be ported into the land of MIDI. I spent a great deal practising articulation on the guitar and don't want this to be lost. Which, fwiw (and as said before), is why I absolutely dig Roland's work on the VG and SY series - because these actually take guitar articulations into account.

And again and also as said: This is the fundamental difference between guitars and keyboards when used as MIDI controllers.
Pretty much anything you do on a keyboard (no, we don't need esoteric examples of people playing prepared pianos with spoons and what not) translates intp MIDI 1:1. Heck, even if you are a classically trained pianist, you don't need to adjust much (if any) of your core playing technique.
On the guitar however, not only are tons of informations lost, no, they're even causing unwanted side effects, so, as a result you have to adjust your playing technique quite a bit (or just get along with whatever it might be). In addition, the converter units are better off in case they're allowing for some pre-filtering before the signal hits your DAW or synth. There's "data thinning" options for a reason. I still remember the memory overloads on the Atari ST. Without careful playing and data thinning, you could simply run out of note/data memory back in the days. None of that would ever happen with a master keyboard.