Anybody else getting sick of modellers?

[Shredder777]

I still own and use tube amps because I have an emotional bond with them. Not because of any other reason. The people that insist that modelers aren’t good enough are letting their emotional side dominate their brain. Just be fucking honest with yourself and everybody else and acknowledge that you prefer tube amps because they are fucking cool, because they are. All this other bullshit is simply people trying to rationalize their emotional bias.

Let's say the modeler is just as good and indistiguishable from a tube amp. I think that's very possible or close enough that it doesn't matter.

But, there are a few things still working in an amp's favor besides emotion. It could be called ergonomics or tactile control. Every modeler I have used, you program the amp to sound a certain way, and if you want to use it elsewhere in another patch, you have to copy the patch, or (maybe in fractal land) save the amp as a preset, then you can copy those settings into new patches. And if you make changes, are they synchronized across patches? And to make those changes at a jam/gig, you have to bend down, enter a menu and start tweeaking buttons. Or maybe now some can do it through BT connection with your phone...

Full stop.

With an amp, you set the knobs how you want them, and any patch that uses the amp, reflects how you have it set.

I agree that for music production, there is tons of value in being able to craft and save a diverse sounds, but if you are doing that, software sims make the most sense.

I also think there is a part of maturation where you eventually realize more/better isn't always best, so having 300 perfectly recreated models isn't all its cracked up to be. Even in the old days of rack preamps and tube amps, the mix/match approach wasn't as good as all in one heads. Modelers still don't have the same level of perfect integration with the rest of the amplification and speaker.

I think modelers are great, but I also know that "more better" isn't the draw it used to be. (for me). Its the same reason I haven't bought a ToneX or collected any IRs.

So I would say there are still factors that go beyond emotion that cause one to choose a tube amp.

 

[deadpool_25]

So I would say there are still factors that go beyond emotion that cause one to choose a tube amp.

Just as there are factors that cause one to choose a modeler. Doesn't matter, people. It's a preference. One is not just generally "better" overall. For some reason people wanna argue why their preference is better. Ridiculous. Absolutely. Fucking. Ridiculous.

 

[Mikael Dez]

See, while I'm a dad as well, I do actually make my salary from playing. But apart from that, there's not much difference. As I want (and have to) suit more than just a single musical context, purchasing whatever sonically excellent yet sort of limited exclusive amps is something I just can't justify. Heck, the two fully functional tube amps I still own (modified Laney LC50 and a redknob Twin (with exchanged speakers)) are in fact gathering so much dust that I fear they might in fact take damage (not exactly the best climate in the basement, either).
And while I'm not *that* restricted as you might be in terms of loudness, I could never play my amps in any serious fashion at home (don't feel like buying a loadbox at all, either). I often couldn't even play them at proper levels live.

Modeling really fixed pretty much everything for me, one of *the* biggest benefits being that I can play with the same sound anywhere, regardless whether it's at home, on travels, in the garden, and of course live. And I can customize my rig to suit each and every situation, which sometimes becomes quite a task with real amps.
That very aspect is still exciting me almost every day.

Just curious, what do you do that makes part (or all) of your salary with music?

 

[Frodebro]

Let's say the modeler is just as good and indistiguishable from a tube amp. I think that's very possible or close enough that it doesn't matter.

But, there are a few things still working in an amp's favor besides emotion. It could be called ergonomics or tactile control. Every modeler I have used, you program the amp to sound a certain way, and if you want to use it elsewhere in another patch, you have to copy the patch, or (maybe in fractal land) save the amp as a preset, then you can copy those settings into new patches. And if you make changes, are they synchronized across patches? And to make those changes at a jam/gig, you have to bend down, enter a menu and start tweeaking buttons. Or maybe now some can do it through BT connection with your phone...

Full stop.

With an amp, you set the knobs how you want them, and any patch that uses the amp, reflects how you have it set.

I agree that for music production, there is tons of value in being able to craft and save a diverse sounds, but if you are doing that, software sims make the most sense.

I also think there is a part of maturation where you eventually realize more/better isn't always best, so having 300 perfectly recreated models isn't all its cracked up to be. Even in the old days of rack preamps and tube amps, the mix/match approach wasn't as good as all in one heads. Modelers still don't have the same level of perfect integration with the rest of the amplification and speaker.

I think modelers are great, but I also know that "more better" isn't the draw it used to be. (for me). Its the same reason I haven't bought a ToneX or collected any IRs.

So I would say there are still factors that go beyond emotion that cause one to choose a tube amp.

I don't really care about indistinguishable from tube amps, that's not a metric that influences me at all. My Mark V doesn't sound (or feel) anything like my JVM, but that doesn't make one better or worse. They're different.

As far as saving amp settings, I just use the Fractal block library. In there I have my favorite amps, cabs, and effects, all dialed in the way I like them. I can build a basic preset that is 100% the way I like it in less than two minutes. But I don't spend much time building presets, or even tweaking. I turn it on, plug in the guitar, and play.

 

[Shredder777]

Just as there are factors that cause one to choose a modeler. Doesn't matter, people. It's a preference. One is not just generally "better" overall. For some reason people wanna argue why their preference is better. Ridiculous. Absolutely. Fucking. Ridiculous.

For the record, I didn't say amps were better, only that someone could choose to use one for reasons other than "emotion".

 

[Sascha Franck]

Just curious, what do you do that makes part (or all) of your salary with music?

Largely "functional" gigs. Also returned to playing in a tribute show more or less recently again, not exactly what I dreamt of when I started making music, but still better than most other jobs I could imagine. I vastly prefer the typical functional gigs, though, especially when it's telephone bands, so you're just thrown into whatever waters. Keeps a bit of excitement alive. And sometimes there's nice surprises (just had a gig last weekend with an incredible rhythm section, so even the most boring tunes were fun to play).

 

[timbuck3]

Like a tonemaster?

Not exactly. Thats a 1 trick pony.. for like too much $$$. Now if fender released a tm amp with 10 diff classic fender amps with effects in a stereo head that would be fun

 

[Eagle]

It’s still down to the fact that "FRFR" is mostly nothing like a good amp feel for the player. I have got and use a Kemper power rack and an Axe 3 . I still have a DV mark multiamp which is actually really good if you use it with a Mesa Thiele ev cab. But my Diezel VH4 and Soldano x88 / VHT rigs are way more interactive. The closest you can get digital to the player experience is using a guitar power amp and guitar cabs. By far the best Kemper profiles I have played are when you use the same cab that made the profile with the Kemper. This is what Mark Knopfler did on his last tour. He spent a long time in his studio profiling his amps with his sound engineer. "FRFR" is just not the same experience and even the guitar specific ones are still missing the mark. The best ones imo are the Laney ones and not expensive.
But both types sound great and the audience will not know the difference unless you use Headflush shit then they go home with a headache.

 

[laxu]

Not exactly. Thats a 1 trick pony.. for like too much $$$. Now if fender released a tm amp with 10 diff classic fender amps with effects in a stereo head that would be fun

I think that might be a disappointing amp. IMO a big part of how the different Fender amps sound is the speakers, so if you have a regular guitar speaker you'd have 10 Fenders that sound fine, but not that distinctly different from each other.

Quilter had the right idea with the Aviator Cub where it's Tweed - Silverface - Blackface I think. That is enough variation.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It’s still down to the fact that """FRFR""" is mostly nothing like a good amp feel for the player.

True. It's better.

 

[Eagle]

True. It's better.

For you maybe . What "FRFR" do you like?
The best I have found so far is a custom built for the speaker f12x200 loaded wedge with a Matrix gt1000 fx or and old HH V800 in my friends studio. I sometimes use a VHT 2502 with it depending on the model.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For you maybe . What ""FRFR"" do you like?

Pretty much any. And yes, I'm serious. Played through a Yamaha DXR10 for quite a while and replaced it with an Alto TS 310 later on (the Yamaha was part of my mini PA so I needed something in addition) - and I think I actually prefere the Alto a little (huge difference to the TS 210, btw), just that it's not made very well, the pots are pretty scratchy already, so I think it needs another replacement. I might even go for an 8" one this time and maybe add the Alto should I ever need some more oomph.
Ah well, yes, I played an older analog RCF for a while, heavy AF but that one actually stood out (at least outside of a band mix), very likely because of its weight. I mean, you need to have some weight to backup any pushed air. But that's really only relevant once things get loud and the returns are diminishing quickly in a band context.
Oh yes, there's horrible "FRFR" wedges to be sure. Such as the 8" Headrush ones, which seem to want to overcompensate the lack of real cone estate by some low end DSP boost, which results in them to sound like a muddy mess.
I'm also getting along fine with studio monitors, regular headphones and IEM buds.
Seriously, it's a matter of getting used to and using the right cab sim. Especially for live, some IRs that you may love at home, simply won't work, thanks to Fletcher-Munson. So I took great care of mixing together some IRs (and then consolidate them) at high levels and then rather get used to use them at lower volumes, too.
Very obviously, it's a good idea to get accustomed to global monitoring EQs, which will often adress some issues that might still be left.

 

[Eagle]

Pretty much any. And yes, I'm serious. Played through a Yamaha DXR10 for quite a while and replaced it with an Alto TS 310 later on (the Yamaha was part of my mini PA so I needed something in addition) - and I think I actually prefere the Alto a little (huge difference to the TS 210, btw), just that it's not made very well, the pots are pretty scratchy already, so I think it needs another replacement. I might even go for an 8" one this time and maybe add the Alto should I ever need some more oomph.
Ah well, yes, I played an older analog RCF for a while, heavy AF but that one actually stood out (at least outside of a band mix), very likely because of its weight. I mean, you need to have some weight to backup any pushed air. But that's really only relevant once things get loud and the returns are diminishing quickly in a band context.
Oh yes, there's horrible ""FRFR"" wedges to be sure. Such as the 8" Headrush ones, which seem to want to overcompensate the lack of real cone estate by some low end DSP boost, which results in them to sound like a muddy mess.
I'm also getting along fine with studio monitors, regular headphones and IEM buds.
Seriously, it's a matter of getting used to and using the right cab sim. Especially for live, some IRs that you may love at home, simply won't work, thanks to Fletcher-Munson. So I took great care of mixing together some IRs (and then consolidate them) at high levels and then rather get used to use them at lower volumes, too.
Very obviously, it's a good idea to get accustomed to global monitoring EQs, which will often adress some issues that might still be left.

Good studio monitors I don’t mind because it’s detached already but for me it’s less about the sound of them rather than my playing experience. Particularly clean to edge of break up. Although obviously some sound a lot better than others.

 

[Sascha Franck]

playing experience. Particularly clean to edge of break up.

IMO this is one area where sheer volume comes into play. Sometimes it works when using headphones and turning them up some, but anything from clean to break up IME is much more of a joy to play with at volume. Might as well be true for pretty much anything, but for me it's that very category of sounds where it really matters. While "historically strange" (so to say), I can play whatever kinda rock riffs at lower volumes easily, leads are never any issue at any level, but I just love to feel a little bit of physical impact on, say, funky cleans.
Anyhow, for me it still doesn't make a difference whether that volume comes from a real cab or a wedge. Of course, a friggin heavy Twin will offer more "support" of whatever moving air, but a decent wedge is fine for me. In fact, when I crank them a bit, even studio monitors deliver enough oomph, but I can rarely really turn them up.

Unfortunately, plain volume, at least for me, still is a thing. It's also why (while used to it since ages already) I don't like silent stage IEM gigs too much. A good band locking into the pocket of a groove on a nice sounding stage at a perfect (not earsmashing yet "stomping") volume is quite something and the very #1 thing I love most about playing music.

 

[Eagle]

IMO this is one area where sheer volume comes into play. Sometimes it works when using headphones and turning them up some, but anything from clean to break up IME is much more of a joy to play with at volume. Might as well be true for pretty much anything, but for me it's that very category of sounds where it really matters. While "historically strange" (so to say), I can play whatever kinda rock riffs at lower volumes easily, leads are never any issue at any level, but I just love to feel a little bit of physical impact on, say, funky cleans.
Anyhow, for me it still doesn't make a difference whether that volume comes from a real cab or a wedge. Of course, a friggin heavy Twin will offer more "support" of whatever moving air, but a decent wedge is fine for me. In fact, when I crank them a bit, even studio monitors deliver enough oomph, but I can rarely really turn them up.

Unfortunately, plain volume, at least for me, still is a thing. It's also why (while used to it since ages already) I don't like silent stage IEM gigs too much. A good band locking into the pocket of a groove on a nice sounding stage at a perfect (not earsmashing yet "stomping") volume is quite something and the very #1 thing I love most about playing music.

Totally agree on volume mattering.

 

[laxu]

IMO this is one area where sheer volume comes into play. Sometimes it works when using headphones and turning them up some, but anything from clean to break up IME is much more of a joy to play with at volume. Might as well be true for pretty much anything, but for me it's that very category of sounds where it really matters. While "historically strange" (so to say), I can play whatever kinda rock riffs at lower volumes easily, leads are never any issue at any level, but I just love to feel a little bit of physical impact on, say, funky cleans.
Anyhow, for me it still doesn't make a difference whether that volume comes from a real cab or a wedge. Of course, a friggin heavy Twin will offer more "support" of whatever moving air, but a decent wedge is fine for me. In fact, when I crank them a bit, even studio monitors deliver enough oomph, but I can rarely really turn them up.

Unfortunately, plain volume, at least for me, still is a thing. It's also why (while used to it since ages already) I don't like silent stage IEM gigs too much. A good band locking into the pocket of a groove on a nice sounding stage at a perfect (not earsmashing yet "stomping") volume is quite something and the very #1 thing I love most about playing music.

Totally agree.

I find that at home I can use up to 10 dB less volume through studio monitors aimed at my head compared to a guitar cab on the floor, while still perceiving it as "nice and loud".

It's just generally easier to make a guitar cab in the room to sound pleasing to the ear compared to the more direct sound of cab sims blasting at your ear.

 

[timbuck3]

I think that might be a disappointing amp. IMO a big part of how the different Fender amps sound is the speakers, so if you have a regular guitar speaker you'd have 10 Fenders that sound fine, but not that distinctly different from each other.

Quilter had the right idea with the Aviator Cub where it's Tweed - Silverface - Blackface I think. That is enough variation.

Thats why i mentioned a HEAD version. So you can pair with diff speakers. My fav being 4-10

 

[timbuck3]

Orianthi played live on television for millions of viewers using her $219 Orange practice amp

Do you really need an expensive amp after all? For one of Orianthi's biggest gigs of 2024, her signature solid-state 1x8" combo got the job done

www.yahoo.com

 

[timbuck3]

“I don’t care if all guitar internet hates me. I cannot wait for this pendulum to swing back. Mark my words, it will”: Why Rhett Shull thinks amp modelers will fall out of favor in the future

While Reverb’s 21 best-selling amps of 2024 were all bereft of tubes, Shull is convinced that tube amps will make an inevitable comeback

www.guitarworld.com