Anybody else getting sick of modellers?

128x oversampling is probably almost as good as 256 (

To get that last 2% takes all those things to be at the 48k level or above, not the 44.1 level. So that means twice as much oversampling.

Dude... @Frodebro was absolutely right. You're talking about things you have no idea about.
You also still didn't answer how latency would impact things differently than distance (and yes, I do know the difference...).
 
Last edited:
I haven't plugged my Axe FX III in for 3 weeks.

Uh Oh Oops GIF by 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment

Acoustic can be fun too
 
I'm curious. Has anyone booted up a Fractal model and thought, "that was kinda underwhelming", then checked the bias and found it was biased cold, increased the bias, and then what they heard was solid gold? Because that is a real phenomena that people experience with real amps.

Also with real amps you can roll tubes. And speakers/cabs.

I don't know the answers. My impression of models I have played is that they were somewhat generic and had more EQ sweep or range of gain than the real amp might have. So the model is made to work with a larger variety of setups. I can get them to sound as good, BUT the feeling is that you really have to find the sweet spot, where with a real amp, no matter how you have the controls it sounds good.

I have heard people in Fractal land say they had to spend a lot of time tweaking filters/eq. Heard that even more in Helix land. So I'm not sure they are 100%. Close enough to not matter, but there are some intangibles that may be lost.
If you take out the IRs, plug your modeler to a half-decent poweramp and a great cab, then I don't find there to be any significant difference in using the modeler vs real amp. Now you might have preferences for the poweramp where they don't all perform equally.

I was just doing this with my Hotone > Amp1 fx return > 4x10, and the tones I got were great with not much effort. And that's with a modeler that is not even in the top tier.

A lot of the complications come from cab sims and output systems. That's the equivalent of trying to find the right speakers for your amp, or rolling tubes to fine tune it, or how to mic it for best results.

With Fractal you could dive into modding the amp, but I have never been able to get better results than the original.
 
If you take out the IRs, plug your modeler to a half-decent poweramp and a great cab, then I don't find there to be any significant difference in using the modeler vs real amp. Now you might have preferences for the poweramp where they don't all perform equally.

I was just doing this with my Hotone > Amp1 fx return > 4x10, and the tones I got were great with not much effort. And that's with a modeler that is not even in the top tier.

A lot of the complications come from cab sims and output systems. That's the equivalent of trying to find the right speakers for your amp, or rolling tubes to fine tune it, or how to mic it for best results.

With Fractal you could dive into modding the amp, but I have never been able to get better results than the original.

Why the power amp?
 
If you take out the IRs, plug your modeler to a half-decent poweramp and a great cab, then I don't find there to be any significant difference in using the modeler vs real amp. Now you might have preferences for the poweramp where they don't all perform equally.

I was just doing this with my Hotone > Amp1 fx return > 4x10, and the tones I got were great with not much effort. And that's with a modeler that is not even in the top tier.

A lot of the complications come from cab sims and output systems. That's the equivalent of trying to find the right speakers for your amp, or rolling tubes to fine tune it, or how to mic it for best results.

With Fractal you could dive into modding the amp, but I have never been able to get better results than the original.

I keep my JVM 205C at our guitar player's house, where the band rehearses. Sometimes I run into the insert return of it, and sometimes I run into the 'secondary' PA that the keyboardist and I share (we have our own mixer and 15" JBLs). It really depends on the mood I'm in on any given day, and I have dedicated presets in my FM9 for both configurations.

When I'm running direct, it's stereo all the way with a full complement of effects. For running into the combo, it's a very streamlined, simplistic chain with minimal effects and only one amp model (a JVM, of course) with a few different levels of gain.
 
Honestly, if I have to carry a power amp and speaker cabinet to a gig to make my modeler sound like a real amp, I am going to to the extra step of just brining the head instead of the modeler. By hooking up a power amp and cabinet I would be taking away one of the major advantages to using a modeler in the first place. If this is what is required, it really comes down to deciding to either grab the modeler or my amp head and pedal board. I will more than likely choose the amp head and pedal boar every time. I know I can get the tones I want and adjust volumes easily without having to readjust everything in the patch to sound like I want. This is honestly the reason I keep gigging with combo amps instead of modelers. I can tilt them to point at the back of my head so I can hear them and I can get all I want from them. I honestly wish I could get these results from my modelers. I am not done trying to do that but it is more work for sure.
Sure, that’s valid. I would still say there’s additional flexibility and weight savings with the modeler rig, but yeah you’re not far off from just using an amp again. I prefer the size and versatility of "FRFR" cabs though, so it wouldn’t be the direction I go anyway.
 
Would that be crazy loud at home?
That seems pretty cool

Power tubes can be a bit finicky when it comes to the input signal they require to not sound thin, but this is also dependent on the circuit design. Mt Mesa Stiletto Deuce (a 100W head) tends to not be very household friendly on its own, but run in 4CM with a bit of strategic EQ I can get great sounds at television volume levels. My Mark V sounds great on its own, even at very low volume levels.

What I have found is that you don't really 'need' a tube power amp to drive a traditional cab, the power amp modeling in most modern modelers is good enough that a clean SS power amp is going to work just as well. I tested this using a pair of 1960 cabs, driven first by a Marshall 9100 (power amp modeling off) and then a QSC GX3 )PA modeling on). There were differences in sound, yes, but they were pretty minimal. I probably could have gotten them really close with a bit of tweaking to the power amp parameters, but I don't really give a shit about making one sound EXACTLY like the other. As long as I like the way it sounds, I'm happy.
 
So on one hand, they/we acknowledge there is a difference, yet on the other hand, anyone who suggests conversion is important gets hate mail.

I think people should come down on one side or the other, not both.

No, it’s more that the quality and design of the audio path, components and circuit around the converters is more important than just the quality and spec of the converters alone. Try not to fixate solely upon converters.
 
Last edited:
No, it’s more that the quality and design of the audio path, components and circuit around the converters is more important than just the quality and spec of the converters alone. Try not to fixate solely upon converters.
If you go back a page you can see a list of the things that I believe are important. The point is that the best algorithms alone are not solving the problem. Powerful cpu, oversampling, conversion, sample/bit rate, etc all combine to create the last 5%.

When ToneX says "up to 123db dynamic range" I'm pretty sure that is code for the spec listed for their converter, and it may be up to that level, not actually at that level. Which is where the difficulty comes in comparing them. Some companies express it differently.

I found a DI post from a decade ago where Line6 gets that level of dynamic range from lesser converters using some kind of trick (probably parallel conversion). I remember RME did something like this on their old UFX inputs over a decade ago.

So this absolutely matters. If some company is using the decade old converters that Line6 was using in the Helix (114db), but not using their "trick", it may be that any signal expressed through that path will be compromised. And what if they are not using the "trick" on the Pod Go or the HX Stomp? Even with the same algorithms it might lose some quality. People have said the Pod Go doesn't sound as good as the Helix, so this might be part of the reason why.

The DI post above tells me that conversion matters or else they wouldn't be using their "patented trick" to get 123db. The reason cheap devices are able to get this level of dynamic range in 2024, my guess, is that good conversion has fallen in price. Or maybe everyone has adopted the "trick".
 
If you go back a page you can see a list of the things that I believe are important. The point is that the best algorithms alone are not solving the problem. Powerful cpu, oversampling, conversion, sample/bit rate, etc all combine to create the last 5%.

When ToneX says "up to 123db dynamic range" I'm pretty sure that is code for the spec listed for their converter, and it may be up to that level, not actually at that level. Which is where the difficulty comes in comparing them. Some companies express it differently.

I found a DI post from a decade ago where Line6 gets that level of dynamic range from lesser converters using some kind of trick (probably parallel conversion). I remember RME did something like this on their old UFX inputs over a decade ago.

So this absolutely matters. If some company is using the decade old converters that Line6 was using in the Helix (114db), but not using their "trick", it may be that any signal expressed through that path will be compromised. And what if they are not using the "trick" on the Pod Go or the HX Stomp? Even with the same algorithms it might lose some quality. People have said the Pod Go doesn't sound as good as the Helix, so this might be part of the reason why.

The DI post above tells me that conversion matters or else they wouldn't be using their "patented trick" to get 123db. The reason cheap devices are able to get this level of dynamic range in 2024, my guess, is that good conversion has fallen in price. Or maybe everyone has adopted the "trick".

Way too much book specs for me! All I care about is whether a unit does what I need it to, and if it sounds good doing it.
 
Back
Top