Anybody else getting sick of modellers?

[JasonE]

I'm curious. Has anyone booted up a Fractal model and thought, "that was kinda underwhelming", then checked the bias and found it was biased cold, increased the bias, and then what they heard was solid gold? Because that is a real phenomena that people experience with real amps.

Also with real amps you can roll tubes. And speakers/cabs.

I don't know the answers. My impression of models I have played is that they were somewhat generic and had more EQ sweep or range of gain than the real amp might have. So the model is made to work with a larger variety of setups. I can get them to sound as good, BUT the feeling is that you really have to find the sweet spot, where with a real amp, no matter how you have the controls it sounds good.

I have heard people in Fractal land say they had to spend a lot of time tweaking filters/eq. Heard that even more in Helix land. So I'm not sure they are 100%. Close enough to not matter, but there are some intangibles that may be lost.

And once you get the modeler tweaked to your liking don't decide that you need to run it louder or you will start tweaking again. That is probably one of my biggest complaints is they are more finicky if you turn up or down than my amps are.

You don’t even bias some amps. No Mesa, certainly. There’s a lot of snake oil and bullshit superstition with tube amps (as much as I do still like them).

Some as you mentioned are fixed bias like Mesa. My Roadster is that way. However, I do have a couple of amps that have a bias adjust on them and it does make a difference in how they sound if you go cold or hot on the bias setting. I usually adjust it to see where the top and bottom are and go in the middle and tweak from there. I have tried different types of tubes (EL34, E34L and 6L6GC) in them and had to adjust for the different tubes.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I have tried different types of tubes (EL34, E34L and 6L6GC) in them and had to adjust for the different tubes.

Of course you had to. Because many/most tube amps require just that.
But you usually don't reach for your bias adjustement as a daily tone shaping tool, it's a set and forget thing.

 

[Shredder777]

Of course you had to. Because many/most tube amps require just that.
But you usually don't reach for your bias adjustement as a daily tone shaping tool, it's a set and forget thing.

Tubes wear and bias can drift. You absolutely do check and reset bias if you are on top of your maintenance. That is why some amps sound underwhelming, then they get new tubes and a bias and they sound much better.

 

[JasonE]

Tubes wear and bias can drift. You absolutely do check and reset bias if you are on top of your maintenance. That is why some amps sound underwhelming, then they get new tubes and a bias and they sound much better.

This has been my experience as well. If anything starts to sound different, I check the bias. It is easy to do, at least on these amps.

 

[Mongillo19]

Well yeah, two amps of the same model through the same cab can sound different.

For sure, but this is just a general statement honestly. It's the same outcome regardless of the amp. The digital device is more dull in comparison

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Wait -- the question he was addressing was "my Fender amp that says it has all the amps and effects in it". So we're talking Fender Mustang here people.

"Enjoy whatever amp you've got...it doesn't matter". "Unless your Duane Allman, you aren't going to get that sound". None of this is controversial.

Amateur guitarists on the internet debate whether tone is in the fingers.

Professional guitarists spent decades working on technique because they know that tone is in the fingers and that it takes work to develop the technique required for great tone.

Amateur guitarists on the internet then declare they know more than professional guitarists about tone.

Achilles asked me after I posted a clip a few months ago whether I stepped on a boost at the end. Not only had I not stepped on a boost, I hadn't touched the volume knob on my guitar. I've spent the last 5 years working hard on technique to be able to do that shit. I haven't increased speed in the least, but my tone has improved a lot. I've put a LOT of time in to improving my technique. As my technique has improved...I've also gotten to where I can hear more differences in gear. In large part because the technique I use highlights those differences to a greater degree than my hamfisted efforts of a few years ago.

That said, I would take the technique improvement I've developed over the last five or six years and a Katana vs. having all the perfect gear, digital and tube, and ability to use them at volumes I need and not having the technique improvement.

Tom Bukovac has got technique for days in terms of pulling all sorts of sonic color and nuance from a guitar plugged into an amp. I'mma guess he's even more tuned into very subtle differences that I'm not going to hear.

I also don't get the sense that he gives a shit to try to "prove" anything to anyone. Nor should he.

 

[paisleywookiee]

For sure, but this is just a general statement honestly. It's the same outcome regardless of the amp. The digital device is more dull in comparison

Eh. Through a great power amp, into the same cab, it’s really, really close IMO.

If I were super concerned about amp in the room, I’d just get a power and Recto cab with Creamback+V30, and call it a day. The amount of difference in 2024 is splitting hairs. The problem is that power. That’s where it falls apart in so many cases.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Some as you mentioned are fixed bias like Mesa. My Roadster is that way. However, I do have a couple of amps that have a bias adjust on them and it does make a difference in how they sound if you go cold or hot on the bias setting. I usually adjust it to see where the top and bottom are and go in the middle and tweak from there. I have tried different types of tubes (EL34, E34L and 6L6GC) in them and had to adjust for the different tubes.

Oh sure, definitely when you’re talking non-fixed. Mesa is more the exception than the rule.

 

[Jarick]

And once you get the modeler tweaked to your liking don't decide that you need to run it louder or you will start tweaking again. That is probably one of my biggest complaints is they are more finicky if you turn up or down than my amps are.

That’s why it’s so key to have quick access to tone controls. Any time you’re going up and down in volume it’s nice to be able to tweak. Not getting deep into to amp fine tunings. Just BMT.

 

[Shredder777]

For sure, but this is just a general statement honestly. It's the same outcome regardless of the amp. The digital device is more dull in comparison

People know this to be true, yet in the other thread people are screaming that conversion quality doesn't matter.

So on one hand, they/we acknowledge there is a difference, yet on the other hand, anyone who suggests conversion is important gets hate mail.

I think people should come down on one side or the other, not both.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

People know this to be true, yet in the other thread people are screaming that conversion quality doesn't matter.

So on one hand, they/we acknowledge there is a difference, yet on the other hand, anyone who suggests conversion is important gets hate mail.

I think people should come down on one side or the other, not both.

It seems you think that modeling tone is in the converter, and others disagree, which doesn't mean they are trying to have it both ways.

 

[Frodebro]

People know this to be true, yet in the other thread people are screaming that conversion quality doesn't matter.

So on one hand, they/we acknowledge there is a difference, yet on the other hand, anyone who suggests conversion is important gets hate mail.

I think people should come down on one side or the other, not both.

I think that you're really not into digital at all. So rather than say "Hey, I think I would prefer to stick with what I'm comfortable with," you have instead chosen to try to criticize everything about it, down to the most trivial things, in order to validate your opinion.

I say this not as an attack or criticism of you or your opinions, but rather as an honest observation based upon everything that you have posted.

Face it-you're an old-school tube guy. And there is NOTHING wrong with that at all.

 

[Shredder777]

Ive played modelers exclusively over past six or so years. I dont have occasion to use a tube amp most of the time.

I believe that modeling quality is the sum of parts. Algorithms, input buffer, cpu power, bit rate, sample rate, oversampling, and conversion quality and many other things.

That last missing 5% or last 2% is a result of some combination of the above factors. There are dimishing return on most things. Like 44.1 sample rate technically represents range of human hearing, but harmonics above that require 48k Which is why 48k is minumum we should track at if possible. 128x oversampling is probably almost as good as 256 ( or whatever they are using )but 256 is impractical given current cpu power. 114db sn is almost as good as 124db sn.

To get that last 2% takes all those things to be at the 48k level or above, not the 44.1 level. So that means twice as much oversampling. Best opamps. Best conversion. Everything. That is where the last 2% hides. It is achievable with better processors, the best conversion, the best audio path, the best algorithms.

Merry xmas.

 

[ian_dissonance]

BUT the feeling is that you really have to find the sweet spot, where with a real amp, no matter how you have the controls it sounds good.

That’s nonsense. Most amps have a range of gain/eq/volume where they “do the thing” and it’s just easy to make an amp sound like damp ass as it is any other option. It’s the same “phenomenon” as mixing audio in a studio setting where you need to match volume to make sure you’re making good choices or not just getting excited by volume changes. Amp+cab+room is a totally different equation than amp(model)+cab(model)+mic(model)+playback system. People always want to make these apples to nutsacks comparisons like they’re having a deep thought.

 

[JasonE]

Eh. Through a great power amp, into the same cab, it’s really, really close IMO.

If I were super concerned about amp in the room, I’d just get a power and Recto cab with Creamback+V30, and call it a day. The amount of difference in 2024 is splitting hairs. The problem is that power. That’s where it falls apart in so many cases.

Honestly, if I have to carry a power amp and speaker cabinet to a gig to make my modeler sound like a real amp, I am going to to the extra step of just brining the head instead of the modeler. By hooking up a power amp and cabinet I would be taking away one of the major advantages to using a modeler in the first place. If this is what is required, it really comes down to deciding to either grab the modeler or my amp head and pedal board. I will more than likely choose the amp head and pedal boar every time. I know I can get the tones I want and adjust volumes easily without having to readjust everything in the patch to sound like I want. This is honestly the reason I keep gigging with combo amps instead of modelers. I can tilt them to point at the back of my head so I can hear them and I can get all I want from them. I honestly wish I could get these results from my modelers. I am not done trying to do that but it is more work for sure.

 

[TheTrueZoltan!]

[…] in the other thread people are screaming that conversion quality doesn't matter.

And I‘ll say it in this thread, too. You are wrong about the importance of conversion quality. What really matters is the software that runs on these devices. Sure, if what you actually mean with conversion quality is the overall design and fidelity of the analog path, then I agree that there are differences. And these differences can lead to a higher or lower noise floor, which can get quite obvious when doing 4CM. But again: it‘s not the AD/DA conversion.

 

[mercifulfuzziness]

While I agree it doesn't matter for beginners, it's a smug "you must be this good to hear the nuance" attitude that doesn't match the reality where the best modelers on the market can be just as good as the real amps, with plenty of measurements and recordings to prove it.

Now if you prefer the real amp for its simplicity, or how it sounds in the room, that's totally fine. But I feel there's a lot of "only this rare vintage amp is good enough" elitism coming from older people on YT. Unsurprisingly, there's never more than opinion to back this up.

I honestly don't care for Tom's takes on tone. His "my $1600 tube reverb sounds better than a Flint" video where he doesn't even have them at the same volume, recorded through a smartphone set up like you are sitting up on Uncle Larry's lap, is no way to demonstrate sound differences. A player with his experience should know better than that.

Most of these tube amps can’t be played at volumes suitable for home. So even if you like the amp in the room … I don’t see myself playing even a Deluxe Reverb at home (or never get higher than 2(?). My teacher mentioned she can’t get her tube higher than that without causing problems.

Wonder how Tom feels about the Tonemaster series

 

[Sascha Franck]

You absolutely do check and reset bias if you are on top of your maintenance

I never said anything else.
But you don't use bias adjustments as a part of your daily tonal shapings.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I think that you're really not into digital at all.

Most likely this.
And maybe some other things, but that'd be pure speculation...

 

[Orvillain]

I haven't plugged my Axe FX III in for 3 weeks.