Anybody else getting sick of modellers?

[Sedaxel]

Yeah. I mean, my only point is that I've written that exact same point before, in contexts ranging from playing at home to playing with others, but lately, for me... eh

Everyone has their own experience.

I run a modeller through a real guitar speaker, and for me, it's the optimum configuration for gigging (stage monitoring).

Having tried every other config, it's clear for me.

Not saying the "FRFR" way is horrible. Just saying it's not on par.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Played a casino gig last night. Ran my FM3 through a Roland keyboard amp. It was actually a surprisingly good experience. Other guitarist used his usual pedalboard board through an MG combo so it wasn't exactly high dollar backline but it held up fine in the lower stage volume environment.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Played a casino gig last night. Ran my FM3 through a Roland keyboard amp. It was actually a surprisingly good experience. Other guitarist used his usual pedalboard board through an MG combo so it wasn't exactly high dollar backline but it held up fine in the lower stage volume environment.

Nice going. Now you’re going to start a new "FRFR" flavor of the week.

“Bro, what’s the best keyboard amp for modelers? What’s like a Roland, but, you know, more ‘boutique’?”

 

[Sascha Franck]

Not saying the """FRFR""" way is horrible. Just saying it's not on par.

Could be said the other way around as well (for a whole number of reasons). Just mentioning...

 

[Sedaxel]

Could be said the other way around as well (for a whole number of reasons). Just mentioning...

Yeah, I guess it could.

I'm only thinking about my gigging feelings. Every single time I thought that I should tweak or "repair" something in my rig to improve my gigging experience, I was using "FRFR" rigs.

With guitar cabs, I never had that sensation. It could be a random thing... I don't know. Personally, I have quite clear what's the best working option for me.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Time and time again I have brought my QSC K8.2 (on a stand) and HX device (either Floor or Stomp) to a gig with another guitarist using a guitar combo (Mesa, Peavey, Marshall, to name a few), and was able to be:

A. louder
B. clearer
C. told by FoH to turn the fuck down
D. never buried in the mix

The only times these weren't true were when I decided to run direct only with no amp or monitor on stage acting as a backline. It was never obvious to me standing on stage, only when I left the stage and listened from the audience perspective.

IME you have to put some space between you and the 2-way for it to sound "together"

That said, I'm having so much fun plugging straight into my 50W Stealth and 2x12 at home. Not so sure about how I'd feel of it were blasting the back of my knees at a gig like the old days. I would crank my 100w amp but be standing out of the beam thinking "dude where's my tone?"

 

[paisleywookiee]

C. told by FoH to turn the fuck down

Turn down, or turn the fuck down? That's like 3dB (only logarithmic).

 

[Sascha Franck]

I'm only thinking about my gigging feelings. Every single time I thought that I should tweak or "repair" something in my rig to improve my gigging experience, I was using ""FRFR"" rigs.

With guitar cabs, I never had that sensation. It could be a random thing... I don't know. Personally, I have quite clear what's the best working option for me.

Fwiw, I'm not saying anyone would have to use fullrange monitoring. Not even at all. Took me a while of getting used to it, adjusting things and what not as well. Defenitely no free lunch affair.

But pretty much all of the points made in favour of real amps/cabs are on the highly subjective side of things. Once we're looking at it from a rather objective POV, real cabs almost can't hold a candle against FR solutions, at least not in a live context. Just to name these:

- Consistent sound. Always. At least regarding the source.
- You can use the same sound at home and on gigs. I know, it sometimes only works in theory, for me it works in actual life, too.
- You can use the same sound through monitors and on IEM gigs.
- Related but still: Silent stage gigs won't cause you headaches.
- Monitoring volume independent from what you deliver to the FOH console. A godsend for all FOH guys and your bandmates.
- Monitoring EQ independent from what you deliver to FOH.
- Monitor placement typically is a lot easier than fooling around with a cab, let alone a combo amp.
- Monitor size is pretty much freely scalable (not a big issue with cabs but at least some sort of issue).
- Transportability typically is better or even much better.

Seriously, I'm not saying anyone should be like me and switch. Everybody please enjoy whatever they think is enjoyable. But objectively, FR monitoring wins hands down in pretty much all aspects.
And as far as my personal decision goes, while I apparently had an easier time to adjust to this "new" method of amplification, while I had very positive experiences, I'm still not gonna lie: the points mentioned above did play a pretty decent role as well. They have simply made my gigging life a whole lot easier. And the life of quite some bandmates and FOH folks as well.

 

[Sedaxel]

Consistent sound. Always. At least regarding the source.

Yeah, I agree. But... What I ended up experiencing is that I get more consistency with a guitar cab. With "FRFR" and IRs, I sometimes like the feeling, while other times I feel buried in the mix, distant and hollow sounding.

- You can use the same sound at home and on gigs. I know, it sometimes only works in theory, for me it works in actual life, too.

Well... I get exactly that with my guitar cab. More than I did with my "FRFR" rigs.

- You can use the same sound through monitors and on IEM gigs.

Nothing wrong here.

- Related but still: Silent stage gigs won't cause you headaches.

Again... If I use my own guitar cab, I get zero issues playing at low volumes. Remember I'm speaking about a cab, not an amp. I'm using a modeller.

- Monitoring volume independent from what you deliver to the FOH console. A godsend for all FOH guys and your bandmates.

Again... I'm using a modeller. The cab is just for stage monitoring. I can have those solutions of giving different volume or EQs to the FOH. But even so, our tech guy still prefers not to do that, and I still prefer sending the same that I use on stage to FOH. I can do what you say too, though.

- Monitoring EQ independent from what you deliver to FOH.

Same as above.

- Monitor placement typically is a lot easier than fooling around with a cab, let alone a combo amp.

I don't get it. I put my cab always in the same position, a little tilted to point to my head, and every single time is easy and straightforward. Nothing to think of or to fool around. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.

- Monitor size is pretty much freely scalable (not a big issue with cabs but at least some sort of issue).

I don't know... I don't care about this, honestly.

- Transportability typically is better or even much better.

Yeah, that's one of the big advantages. However... Given that there are a lot of SS combos weighing less than 10kg, I've found it's light and comfortable... So not a biggy. Used to gig with a 8" "FRFR", and while it was approx 7 kg, I quite prefer the combo in terms of sound and feeling. It's more realistic, it's more easy to get what I want (almost inmediate, actually), looks better, and in a way, it even quits one factor that otherwise should be simulated too (the speaker IR), so the modeller is probably more accurate (a capture of a preamp and poweramp seems easier to make and feels better to me than a capture of a full amp, which implies micing and whatnot).

I get what you say, of course. I'm just saying that I've been there, with a lot of tries during several years, and my conclusion is this that I'm exposing.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I get zero issues playing at low volumes.

Well, silent stages sometimes are silent. As in "no cabs at all". Musical shows for instance.

Again... I'm using a modeller. The cab is just for stage monitoring. I can have those solutions of giving different volume or EQs to the FOH. But even so, our tech guy still prefers not to do that, and I still prefer sending the same that I use on stage to FOH. I can do what you say too, though.

Sure, but the sound coming out of the PA wouldn't be your sound that way.

I don't get it. I put my cab always in the same position, a little tilted to point to my head, and every single time is easy and straightforward. Nothing to think of or to fool around. Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean.

I'm playing a whole bunch of very different gigs. Sometimes I have a lot of space, sometimes so little I need to use a little pole for my monitor. That's a lot easier with a small FR monitor.

As said, everybody should just do whatever offers the best personal experience. For me, FR monitoring wins so much in terms of handling, organisation and what not, I would even go for it if I still prefered real cabs most of the time. But fortunately I even prefer my sound through a FR system.

 

[Frodebro]

People were running iso cabs offstage and hearing themselves only through their monitors for a few decades before modeling was even a thing. Tons of iconic albums were recorded with the guitarist sitting in the control room and hearing himself only through the monitors. Modeling is basically the same experience. Some people struggle with it, some don’t. But it ain’t the gear.

 

[Frankencat]

Before I got my Helix Floor, I didn't know this was actually a thing.

And no, definitely not getting sick of either.

One day I like pizza, the next day I like sushi.

You can definitely be happy with both.

BUT do you like sushi pizza?

 

[Sedaxel]

People were running iso cabs offstage and hearing themselves only through their monitors for a few decades before modeling was even a thing. Tons of iconic albums were recorded with the guitarist sitting in the control room and hearing himself only through the monitors. Modeling is basically the same experience. Some people struggle with it, some don’t. But it ain’t the gear.

Well... It's not the same to like os dislike a record sound than playing guitar on stage and liking (or not) the experience.

And, the differences that I feel are because of the gear, obviously. I'm not a newbie, I know the tech and how to use it. And it's not me the only one who experiences the same. Otherwise, it wouldn't even exists a debate.

One can like more the "FRFR" way (again, not even talking about amps Vs modellers, just cab Vs "FRFR"). But there's not doubt that there is a difference. For better or worse.

 

[Frodebro]

Well... It's not the same to like os dislike a record sound than playing guitar on stage and liking (or not) the experience.

And, the differences that I feel are because of the gear, obviously. I'm not a newbie, I know the tech and how to use it. And it's not me the only one who experiences the same. Otherwise, it wouldn't even exists a debate.

One can like more the ""FRFR"" way (again, not even talking about amps Vs modellers, just cab Vs ""FRFR""). But there's not doubt that there is a difference. For better or worse.

Like I said, it's a different experience. Some people are comfortable with it, some are not.

 

[Sedaxel]

Like I said, it's a different experience. Some people are comfortable with it, some are not.

Yeah.

And that´s also the proof that it´s different to use guitar cabs vs "FRFR"+IRs. And let´s remember that "FRFR" with IRs are intended to emulate guitar cabs... so, if there´s a difference, that means it´s still not perfect. Better or worse... yeah, it depends on everyone´s liking.

 

[dronerstone]

Yeah.

And that´s also the proof that it´s different to use guitar cabs vs ""FRFR""+IRs. And let´s remember that ""FRFR"" with IRs are intended to emulate guitar cabs... so, if there´s a difference, that means it´s still not perfect. Better or worse... yeah, it depends on everyone´s liking.

"FRFR" + IR isn't exactly aiming at sounding cab in the room, but adds the coloration of a microphone.

It's trying to sound like recorded guitar.

Imho that's the main problem in many folks' understanding of this.

 

[Sascha Franck]

""FRFR"" + IR isn't exactly aiming at sounding cab in the room, but adds the coloration of a microphone.

It's trying to sound like recorded guitar.

Imho that's the main problem in many folks' understanding of this.

Well, there's been quite some rave around "far field" IRs, grabbed with a measurement mic, resulting in quite some threads @ TOP (obviously, Jay Mitchell came up with the proper technical explanation and some guy going by "gigsup" (I'm sure many folks will know the name) posted a whole bunch of those far field IRs.
Whatever, the intention of these IRs was to take anything but the speaker and cab out of the equation, mainly mics, their positioning and reflections.
To me, pretty much all of them sounded pretty meh, but I have to admit that I didn't spend much time to test them at higher volumes.
However, it also seems as if that very rave has stopped pretty much completely.

There's also been some IRs either refined or generated completely out of Match EQ actions (which I also tried by myself a number of times, for some purposes it's working pretty well), aiming at sort of similar things, as a Match EQ is able to sort of capture an "average" frequency spectrum, even when you're moving your head (or rather: the capturing mic) around. If done from scratch, the might be resulting in a pretty accurate frequency plot, but they're missing some of the things happening in the time domain (even within those 20something ms of IR length, plenty of things are happening, which you can clearly notice in case you split them up and use the splitted files as individual IRs. And that's something a Match EQ doesn't capture.

Sidenote: I actually happen to think that the time domain "structure" of whatever cabs/IRs (and no, I'm not talking about reflections or anything, just about how speakers blow out frequencies on the timeline) might be an important thing that hasn't been explored too well yet (at least not to my knowledge). I think it could very well be that a speaker could come up with slower or quicker responses depending on frequencies. And no, I'm not talking about the general speed of sound when high frequencies travel faster than lower frequencies (or rather get perceived earlier/later), but about the physical properties of a speaker. I mean, there's frequency plots of speakers looking almost identical, yet playing through them sounds and feels a lot different.
I'm by no means an expert on any of these things, but I could very well imagine some of the reasons for that could have their source in the time domain (and in case you're familiar with, say, the Haas/Precedence-effect, you will as well be familar with how much shifting signals around by small ms numbers will change our perception).
I'm sure @jay mitchell has a lot more insight to all that, maybe you could share some of it?

 

[Sedaxel]

""FRFR"" + IR isn't exactly aiming at sounding cab in the room, but adds the coloration of a microphone.

It's trying to sound like recorded guitar.

Imho that's the main problem in many folks' understanding of this.

I don´t completely agree.

I think that "FRFR" + IR is actually aiming to mimic a guitar cab. For me, that´s the main target. But the problem is that it doesn´t fully succeds because, as you say, there´s the mic factor, which nowadays is still not solved. There´s no way of generating an IR without a mic (as far as I know). And that´s related to what Sascha said in his post above.

My point is that, if there was a way to avoid mic coloration in the IRs, it would be done. The mic in there is just a collateral effect.

All that "amp in the room" nighmare debate is partly because of the mic factor being in the middle. If it wasn´t for that, IRs would be close to being the dream of amp guys.

 

[dronerstone]

I don´t completely agree.

I think that ""FRFR"" + IR is actually aiming to mimic a guitar cab. For me, that´s the main target. But the problem is that it doesn´t fully succeds because, as you say, there´s the mic factor, which nowadays is still not solved. There´s no way of generating an IR without a mic (as far as I know). And that´s related to what Sascha said in his post above.

My point is that, if there was a way to avoid mic coloration in the IRs, it would be done. The mic in there is just a collateral effect.

All that "amp in the room" nighmare debate is partly because of the mic factor being in the middle. If it wasn´t for that, IRs would be close to being the dream of amp guys.

We'd need "average human ear" instead of "mic" then, huh.
Not an expert on this, tbh.

 

[jellodog]

I'm like 180 out of phase with all y'all. I was all "real cabs are real; fake cabs are fake" for soooooo long. Lately... Spent 45 minutes playing through a Headstrong Princeton Reverb copy two weeks ago and came home to plug into my Axe III running into my QSCk8.2 with Princeton Reverb model and was just as happy.

Thank you for posting this. The Headstrong has been on my bucket list forever.

This week I've been having the most satisfying tones of my life from the Axe-Fx too... but of course, the GAS is strong.