What do you find different?

[ejecta]

For those who tend to lean into preferring amps…. what do you find is lacking in a modeler? Also what do you think is better in a modeling setup minus the convenience aspect? Lastly is a tube amp into something like the Two Notes stuff that much better to you or is once you’ve done that might as well go all modeler or is it still better and why? I know what I think but curious what others do.

 

[Baba]

Preface: I am a live player only.

1. what do you find is lacking in a modeler?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but for me, it's the feel under my fingers, and that is the same whether I'm using my amp in silent mode with IEMs (in a straight comparison with modeling through the same IEMs), or with a cabinet, doesn't matter. The amp always wins.

2. Also what do you think is better in a modeling setup minus the convenience aspect?

I'm not sure I have anything other THAN the convenience factor. The sheer number of amps and effects, at your fingertips, in a unit so small, is just unmatched in the "real" world. Maybe less inherent noise and hiss compared to their analog counterparts?

3. Lastly is a tube amp into something like the Two Notes stuff that much better to you or is once you’ve done that might you as well go all modeler or is it better and why?

See #1.

Tone-wise? I don't know, I'm not sure there is that much of a discernable difference, or enough to really matter, that depends on a few things, like the player, their goals, how much space/time you have, etc.

 

[Whizzinby]

I like both, but from a practical perspective the physical knobs and interaction is generally simple and straight forward. Most amps have an inherent tone so you twist a couple dials and you’re rocking.

Cab-In-The-Room is more largely important than the source (digital or analog) feeding it, to get that immersive quality that makes your pants flap in the wind. But, amps are just a more powerful experience in the room, with all its imperfections. They are noisey AF, and have all sorts of things going on at both ends of the EQ spectrum to contend with, but there is a pure power and openness/airiness to it that gets a little lost in translation with modeling. Even running modelers into cabs I find it to be a touch more compressed, slightly less dynamic, and lacking a little zing. (Though it’s still a vastly better experience ITR then with monitors)

Ultimately I love modelers and amps, and they both have significant advantages over the other, but I sure as shit didn’t roll out of bed today hoping to sit in front of an editor and my monitors. I want to turn on the Fireball100 + 412 and let the big dawg eat.

 

[the-trooper]

but for me, it's the feel

Aaaand... Stopped reading.

 

[JiveTurkey]

1. Lacking? For me it's a pretty infinitesimal gap. Really splitting hairs. And it's taken me a LONG time and a number of amps where I have actually moved back from all modeler to a hybrid rig. For however long it lasts. I am not into hyperbole generally speaking and you can get fantastic results in both "directions".

2. Everything I LOVE (at a surface level) in modeling is a convenience. The next "layer (level?)" of what I love about modeling (tone) is also stellar.

3. The main advantage I see of a hybridized setup is that magical amp that BLENDS in with the rest of my band versus always feeling like I am too loud, too quiet, not cutting on an EQ basis. These could all be made up in my head but the minute I started using the Badlander; it bridged that gap with my other guitar player. Again; hyperbole and my lack of enjoyment of that duly noted. There are no real "rules" to follow.

 

[la szum]

Lacking: My experience is EVERYTHING with a modeler platform rests on the monitoring setup. That alone
can make the gap huge or inconsequential. Bad monitoring won't make a modeler shine, and stellar
power/monitoring will.

I can mostly squeeze that gap to nothing running a modeler into the FX RTN of a 100 watt (4 x EL34) tube
amp, and then into a 2 x 12 cab. The gap grows wider (for me) using "FRFR".

For at home and recording purposes a modeler into an interface/DAW and then a out to decent studio
monitoring setup makes the modeling option super fluid, mostly noiseless, and super convenient.

That said, plugging a guitar direct into any number of tube amps is still a total thrill, and inspiring as
all get out.

Both/And/Different/It depends applies.

 

[TSJMajesty]

For me, an amp makes you work more for getting things to sound fluid, which isn't a bad thing. I mainly use my Axe III these days, and I've resisted the urge to make it sound like my amps. But for the times when I want that 'pants flapping in the wind' feeling, I think you can guess which one I use. I have yet to try a 4CM though.

 

[Gearzilla]

For those who tend to lean into preferring amps…. what do you find is lacking in a modeler?

The analog signal flow.

Also what do you think is better in a modeling setup minus the convenience aspect?

The price. In the box adjustments in a DAW.

Lastly is a tube amp into something like the Two Notes stuff that much better to you or is once you’ve done that might as well go all modeler or is it still better and why?

Modeling is great for silent recording and the flexibility with signal modifications. I’ll let you know more of my thoughts on the last question after I pick up a Captor X shortly.

In many ways it can be a question of roi and diminishing returns. To me there’s lots of ways to get good results with digital or analog rigs, and hybrids.

 

[Lopp]

For those who tend to lean into preferring amps…. what do you find is lacking in a modeler?

Simplicity. Less choices of what amp, effect, cabinet to use and what parameters to tweak. I play guitar because I like playing guitar, not tweaking settings.

Aesthetics. This is likely based on growing up seeing real amps on stage, but I think an amp, especially a 4x12 and a head, looks cool. Even if you run your modeler into a 4x12, it is missing the head on the cab.

One thing that is not lacking is the tone. The questions are directed to modelers vs amps, not IRs vs cabs. A Friedman BE-100 model on my former AX8 compared to my real BE-100, each through the same cab are virtually indistinguishable after some minor tweaking.

Also what do you think is better in a modeling setup minus the convenience aspect?

Define convenience. IMHO, every aspect of a modeler that would be considered "better" is arguably based on convenience. You can do most things a modeler can do in the real world, but doing it all would be prohibitively inconvenient, such as having all the amps available, all the effects available, and adjusting deep parameters.

I especially like a modeler because I can use, and switch between, my favorite type of amps for my different tones:

Clean: Roland Jazz Chorus/Boogie Mark IV clean
Crunch: Marshall/Friedman
Balls-out distortion: ENGL/Rectifier/etc.

Similarly, drastically different effects can be used when switching between amp models. Part of that is convenience, but another big part is price and availability.

Some would consider deep editing of parameters on a modeler as better, but I'm not into that.

Lastly is a tube amp into something like the Two Notes stuff that much better to you or is once you’ve done that might as well go all modeler or is it still better and why? I know what I think but curious what others do.

No experience with the Two Note, but yeah, I already have an FM9 for direct recording and thus have no need for the Two Note. I also have some nice tube amps/cabs, and view the Two Note stuff as defeating the purpose of my amps: My favorite way of playing is through an amp and a real cab.

The biggest benefit of the Two Note stuff would be if you have a favorite amp and do not have a modeler, such as by using the Captor for direct recording, cranking the power tubes without destroying your eardrums, and easily selecting between so many different mic and cab options.

Another, one thing that looks really cool is controlling it with a phone/tablet/PC. It would really help to see the cabs, mics, and mic placements physically change instead of scrolling through a gazillion lines of text for IRs, like I need to do on my FM9.

Argh. Now I'm thinking about getting a Captor X.

 

[Baba]

Aaaand... Stopped reading.

Lol, so, modelers, (with A/D, digital processing and D/A converters), feel JUST like old school tube amps? Got it. Must be me.

Different tube amps don’t even feel the same as each other, but, hey, you do you boo.

 

[PBGas]

I just really like the basics of an amp. I have 3 channels that I like and use. I simply twist the knob and there are no firmware updates. I find when playing live, I am much happier with the amp and cab for my monitoring.

For recording, and direct I use a Captor X which sounds great.

Either path you chose, just enjoy and play. There is nothing lacking in modellers. They work and sound great.

 

[the-trooper]

feel

There's that word again. A word guitarists use when they have nothing concrete to say but want to be included in the conversation.
Something so esoteric, unmeasurable and unquantifiable you might as well throw an eye of newt and toe of frog into the mix.

Example:
I hope Helix gets some eye of newt in 3.2 update, I really miss it compared to my tube amp.

 

[Gearzilla]

There's that word again. A word guitarists use when they have nothing concrete to say but want to be included in the conversation.
Something so esoteric, unmeasurable and unquantifiable you might as well throw an eye of newt and toe of frog into the mix.

Feel is another one of those things people either get or they don’t, and you don’t get it yet.

Feel is easy enough to define, and there are plenty of other conversations on the web where feel has been adequately defined and explained—so there’s going to be no additional help from me explaining feel here in this thread

 

[the-trooper]

so there’s going to be no additional help

No need, I have eye of newt in my tube amp and it's missing in Helix.

 

[ejecta]

There's that word again. A word guitarists use when they have nothing concrete to say but want to be included in the conversation.

There’s that dismissive attitude of feel again. That’s what guitarist use when they are either into music that doesn’t call for dynamics in tone and or their tone is gain out so much that the feel is so compressed that it’s lost or they are very inexperienced with playing different types of music on the guitar.

 

[the-trooper]

feel is so compressed

 

[ejecta]

My kids think things are funny that they don’t understand too because they have no frame of reference to have an educated discussion.

 

[Baba]

There's that word again. A word guitarists use when they have nothing concrete to say but want to be included in the conversation.
Something so esoteric, unmeasurable and unquantifiable you might as well throw an eye of newt and toe of frog into the mix.

Example:
I hope Helix gets some eye of newt in 3.2 update, I really miss it compared to my tube amp.

Lol, you literally took one word from my entire response, and say I have nothing concrete to say?

Guys, I must be hitting too close to some kind of personal bias confirmation or something.

YMMV, (or there’s a specific reason you don’t like the “feel” thing, that maybe you should figure out), but, I have A/B’d my different paradigms, and really, you don’t need to do it back to back. They simply do not feel the same as each other, under my fingers.

Gigging through a cabinet, silently with IEMs, through wedges, or recording, it doesn’t matter. I have used both in all of those scenarios.

I’ve even said, (and some of you seemed to have missed this part), different tube amps don’t even feel the same as each other, some are harder to play and less forgiving than others, some are more spongy, etc, so how can a modeler feel exactly the same, across the board, as something else which has its own variables?

I would guess this has more to do with someone’s need to validate their choice of gear, and feeling attacked by a different attitude, than anything else.

By the way, I currently own TWO modelers and ONE tube amp. I don’t have dogs in fights, I just go by what is actually happening, and what my ears and fingers tell me.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Lol, you literally took one word from my entire response, and say I have nothing concrete to say?

Guys, I must be hitting too close to some kind of personal bias confirmation or something.

YMMV, (or there’s a specific reason you don’t like the “feel” thing, that maybe you should figure out), but, I have A/B’d my different paradigms, and really, you don’t need to do it back to back. They simply do not feel the same as each other, under my fingers.

Gigging through a cabinet, silently with IEMs, through wedges, or recording, it doesn’t matter. I have used both in all of those scenarios.

I’ve even said, (and some of you seemed to have missed this part), different tube amps don’t even feel the same as each other, some are harder to play and less forgiving than others, some are more spongy, etc, so how can a modeler feel exactly the same, across the board, as something else which has its own variables?

I would guess this has more to do with someone’s need to validate their choice of gear, and feeling attacked by a different attitude, than anything else.

By the way, I currently own TWO modelers and ONE tube amp. I don’t have dogs in fights, I just go by what is actually happening, and what my ears and fingers tell me.

Slider PTSD.

 

[the-trooper]

My kids think things are funny that they don’t understand too because they have no frame of reference to have an educated discussion.

Or maybe it's just easier for them to laugh than to try to have a serious conversation about absurdity pulled out of thin air sprinkled with patronising attitude.
So they just go, sure dad, sure, watch out not to compress the feel