DLC86
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So you don't like italian porn either?
The case for delay after reverb for studio recording. Please add your experiences.
- Thread starter KingsXJJ
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Essentially:
I think Ed absolutely nailed it.
In a academic sense, it is possible to get delay>reverb to null with reverb>delay - but only with the most basic algorithmic approaches.
There are a few requirements for this null:
- Both delay and reverb must be LTI systems.
- This means no modulation, no time varying filters, no dynamic behaviour, no randomness or diffusion parameter drift.
As soon as you introduce a feedback delay network - which most modern reverb algorithms do - you introduce several properties that destroy the commutativity of the DSP in question.
An FDN is not stateless, so while they can be linear and even time invariant, its output depends recursively on its internal state. This breaks the commutative principle. This is true even when there's no modulation, time varying filtration, and dynamic behaviour.
This isn’t just academic — it has a profound sonic impact. Whether you delay before or after the FDN will change the buildup of early reflections, the onset of the tail, and the perceived spatial positioning.
Happy to be corrected if any of the above is wrong. @jay mitchell @FractalAudio
I think Ed absolutely nailed it.
In a academic sense, it is possible to get delay>reverb to null with reverb>delay - but only with the most basic algorithmic approaches.
There are a few requirements for this null:
- Both delay and reverb must be LTI systems.
- This means no modulation, no time varying filters, no dynamic behaviour, no randomness or diffusion parameter drift.
As soon as you introduce a feedback delay network - which most modern reverb algorithms do - you introduce several properties that destroy the commutativity of the DSP in question.
An FDN is not stateless, so while they can be linear and even time invariant, its output depends recursively on its internal state. This breaks the commutative principle. This is true even when there's no modulation, time varying filtration, and dynamic behaviour.
This isn’t just academic — it has a profound sonic impact. Whether you delay before or after the FDN will change the buildup of early reflections, the onset of the tail, and the perceived spatial positioning.
Happy to be corrected if any of the above is wrong. @jay mitchell @FractalAudio
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I don't like porn. It is degenerate. But I do watch it, and obviously feel bad afterwards.
KingsXJJ
Shredder
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Regardless of how this turns out, I did my best to learn Italian while stationed there. So I could “engage” the local women.Learn italian then you lazy ass
KingsXJJ
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I am fortunate in that I am not an expert on what “gobbling dicks” sounds like. Least of all to somehow use it in an analogy to language.
But we all have our strengths. Mine just don’t involve this example of one.
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MirrorProfiles
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Ill guess, but as we've already established - whether or not it matters depends entirely on the gear and how its used. So I'm not going to say that any example is going to be immediately obvious or not. My stance is that it depends. As I mentioned above, there are MANY different attributes that can have an effect over the placement beyond just modulating delay time. That goes for both the delay type and settings, and reverb type and settings. I could make 4 examples using common guitar sounds that show obvious differences.Ok, here's a blind test, for each sample number (1,2,3,4) tell me which one is delay>reverb or reverb>delay between A and B.
Delay Reverb order test – Google Drive
drive.google.com
What I am trying to hear in these is whether you can hear the reverb tail modulate up and down. When the reverb is before the delay, you'll hear the entire sound all move up and down together, when the reverb is after the delay (with these kinds of sounds and settings) the reverb wash over things won't sound as seasick.
1A sounds like the reverb is before the delay to me
2A again sounds like the reverb is before the delay
3B seems to have more obvious differences (with reverb before the delay), I think because the reverb is at a higher blend
4A would be my guess for reverb before delay. Again, the reverb pitch seems to oscillate more noticeably.
Could well be wrong, but I think in all 4 examples I would always be running the reverb after the delay. There might be situations where you do want the whole sound of the reverb to be affected by the delay, and sometimes I'll run things like this. But for these sounds, I don't think there would be a benefit to that.
DLC86
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My point wasn't if it nulls or not, it's obvious that it only nulls when both are perfectly linear and don't collapse to mono, but if we are able to hear and correctly identify the differences in typical use-case scenario (i.e. without using extreme settings like half seconds time warps or over the top distortion). Are you?
Honestly my knowledge doesn't go as far as understanding how those work, but if they are just what their name suggests (a network of delays feeding back into each-other) then I suppose that's still LTI.
DLC86
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And that's my stance as well, from the first post I just said that it's negligible for subtle stuff, that's what you all argued over... and this blind test is just to prove that statement is accurate. I can make the difference obvious as well but that has never been my point.
Then we can make a survey among all guitarists in the world to establish if it's more common to use this subtle non-linearities or psychedelic self-oscillating madness to find out what's really the "typical use-case scenario", but based on all the recorded and live music I've heard in my life, I'd say it's the former.
That's exactly what happens... but not so obvious when the modulation isn't crazy wide
MirrorProfiles
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IMO the modulation was more than wide enough in your examples but the reverb tail needs to be sufficiently long and/or loud to hear the modulation affecting it.
And that’s only covering situations with this particular reverb and delay, without other kinds of modulation or non linearities, panning etc. Reverbs and delays are capable of a TON of different fx in different configurations and typically take advantage of features that make them behave less linearly. I think it’s more advantageous to be able to lean into the non linear behaviours than to assume they’re mostly LTI.
Here we go with the sweeping generalisations again. I think again, it just depends. I’d imagine more often than not the results they get and use are as a result of putting the pedals in a specific order. I’d imagine most people do pay attention to it, even if it doesn’t always make a noticeable difference.
Similarly, IR’s might be good enough or even indistinguishable for a lot of reverb uses (at certain settings), but that doesn’t mean they don’t usually sound like ass. and similarly, I want delay to have non linear behaviours, and not to be reduced down to something without quirks. Quite often the reason we like particular bits of gear is because of what they do when they’re pushed near their limits and they show off some kind of unique/distinctive character.
Either way - I’m not seeing a strong case for the benefit of being indifferent to the order of reverb and delay. It matters, it makes a difference (even if you can’t always hear it).
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An FDN isn't inherently an LTI. It would not be an LTI if the feedback matrix or gains are modulated over time; which is common in reverb design, and you probably would struggle to find an FDN based reverb that didn't do that.
You should probably checkout some reverb algorithm designs, because more or less, your assertion is kind of laboratory test conditions. But in the real world, a lot of your assumptions fall apart instantly.
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I hear significant differences in your clips. As to whether I could specifically tell you what the order was in each of them, I can't. There is not enough context. Much in the same way I can tell you that a real amp versus Kemper profile has differences in the sonics, but I might not be able to tell you which is which.
The fact that differences are observable is enough to show that the differences are important.
In audio - engineering, DSP design, musicianship - every 2% matters. Your plectrum. Your cables. Your amp. Your cab. Your speakers. Your microphones. Your preamps. Your mixing environment. And yes, the DSP you choose to utilise, and the order of them.
I don't appreciate the race to the bottom when it comes to sound.
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This is really the crux of it.
I think you should care about everything in the pipeline, to some degree.
Sascha Franck
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This thread is pretty absurd.
I mean, I'm known as the local contrarian, but I lack of words to sufficiently defend that achievement.
Anyhow, for anyone even remotely familiar with the subject, it's clear that there's two options:
1) In some cases, the order of delay and reverb doesn't matter.
2) In some cases, the order of delay and reverb does matter.
And that's about it. We can of course continue to argue about all the kind of "1b" situations, maybe describing any kinds of "there's a difference but it still doesn't matter enough" situations (I'd likely be in that camp for, say, 80% of my use cases), but that'd mean to discuss taste, hearing abilities and personal preferences - pretty much pointless.
Which leaves us with (1) and (2) - and they're not really worth any discussion as the reasons for the circumstances of either to exist are crystal clear.
And as far as any subjective "between (1) and (2)" opinions go, it's best to just check all possible scenarios out as much as you can. Instead of discussing semantics.
I mean, I'm known as the local contrarian, but I lack of words to sufficiently defend that achievement.
Anyhow, for anyone even remotely familiar with the subject, it's clear that there's two options:
1) In some cases, the order of delay and reverb doesn't matter.
2) In some cases, the order of delay and reverb does matter.
And that's about it. We can of course continue to argue about all the kind of "1b" situations, maybe describing any kinds of "there's a difference but it still doesn't matter enough" situations (I'd likely be in that camp for, say, 80% of my use cases), but that'd mean to discuss taste, hearing abilities and personal preferences - pretty much pointless.
Which leaves us with (1) and (2) - and they're not really worth any discussion as the reasons for the circumstances of either to exist are crystal clear.
And as far as any subjective "between (1) and (2)" opinions go, it's best to just check all possible scenarios out as much as you can. Instead of discussing semantics.
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Yeah I more or less agree with this.
But I have been learning to build reverbs and delays for a few months, and I am just digging into IIR and FIR filter design recently too, so I find this topic quite fascinating. I find it interesting that people without even a stroke of knowledge on the actual design of these things, can have such confident opinions on them.
ragingplatypi
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I tried a patch live with parallel delay and reverb. It just turned into one more level I needed to adjust on the fly, so I’m done with that outside recording situations.
TheTrueZoltan!
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I don‘t think I ever used delay and reverb. For me it‘s either one or the other.
Sascha Franck
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Has been like that for me for a long time, but by now I like the kinda mellowing effect a reverb has on some delay repeats.
MirrorProfiles
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IMO it's all about whether you run delay and reverb in parallel, or whether you run the delay into reverb.
If DSP and gear are limitless, then doing it parallel means you can dial whatever reverb you like on the delay or route it anywhere. Running reverb into something like Soundtoys Crystalliser/Eventide Crystals can do cool unexpected stuff. Some delays have diffusion controls so as they decay they'll gradually sound more reverbed than the initial early repeats.
Lot of cats and ways to skin them.
If DSP and gear are limitless, then doing it parallel means you can dial whatever reverb you like on the delay or route it anywhere. Running reverb into something like Soundtoys Crystalliser/Eventide Crystals can do cool unexpected stuff. Some delays have diffusion controls so as they decay they'll gradually sound more reverbed than the initial early repeats.
Lot of cats and ways to skin them.
