(UPDATED for new FW!) EVH amp vs Axe Fx, QC and TMP...

[Elric]

I closed my eyes and tried to listen to the 50W EL34 clips to spot where it changes between the devices. The real amp vs Fractal vs QC all sound very close, to the point it's hard to spot where things change. The Fender Tone Master Pro was much more muted sounding.

I do the same (close eyes) when listening to Jon's videos, so as not to bias initial take any more than it already is, and instantly opened my eyes when the vid hit the TMP model.

It is exceptional in its inadequacy. It is like, $30 on aliexpress and I would still consider returning the pedal, bad.

But on the upside it is "official".

Well played Fender.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

But on the upside it is "official".

"Official OriginalTM"

 

[Baba]

fractal is primed to take the whole market if they put a slick gui on the axefx4/fm10 next unit but it has to come 2024

Not unless their business model changes to no waiting lists and available in every GC, it won’t.

 

[laxu]

I do the same (close eyes) when listening to Jon's videos, so as not to bias initial take any more than it already is, and instantly opened my eyes when the vid hit the TMP model.

It is exceptional in its inadequacy. It is like, $30 on aliexpress and I would still consider returning the pedal, bad.

But on the upside it is "official".

Well played Fender.

It's interesting that I didn't see many complaints about it before. "Official" can skew our view.

 

[Baba]

That's what you get for putting Turd Blaster Pro in the same category with actual flagship units.

 

[GTR37]

fractal is primed to take the whole market if they put a slick gui on the axefx4/fm10 next unit but it has to come 2024

They already have a slick GUI called Axe edit , it’s just not on the unit ,but it’s already there and easy to use

 

[the-trooper]

"Official OriginalTM"

 

[GTR37]

It's interesting that I didn't see many complaints about it before. "Official" can skew our view.

I think if that amp sounds exact to the reference amp it’s official EVH gave them a broken amp

 

[ejecta]

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Just a friendly reminder that unless Fender, Fractal Audio, and Neural DSP all modeled the EXACT amplifier with the EXACT component values, all three models will sound different from the real amp.

TL;DR This comparison, like most A/B comparisons, is flawed.

Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either. Why? 1. Component accuracy and drift. The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically...

forum.fractalaudio.com

quite often, a lot of the component tolerance differences, voltages, valve types etc even themselves out to the point of not mattering too much. Not saying they don’t have relevance but it’s rare that they’d cause significant differences that slightly adjusting the controls wouldn’t fix. In almost every case, it’s the power amp and load modelling that is responsible for the biggest differences in tone. I think of all emulations allowed you to adjust the power amp and load behaviour it would close the gap a lot between them.

Using a weird or crappy load for the model may yield a very accurate model in totally useless conditions.

It's interesting that I didn't see many complaints about it before. "Official" can skew our view.

Yep, that’s why threads and videos like this are essential. It’s one thing for companies to claim it’s an accurate model, but if a typical user is unable to make it sound like (not necessarily the same but close enough to) their amp then I’m not interested.

Every modeller has situations like this (where some models just sound way off from how they’re expected to sound), for various reasons. On a product launch with a relatively small choice, it’s more important to get the majority of them right.

 

[Whizzinby]

Didn’t listen, but know the results and have strong opinions.

 

[Orvillain]

Listened. Was really glad it didn't prove my Axe FX obsolete, but also, I have gas for a 6L6 5150III 50watter today, and this video didn't help!

 

[bgstudio]

It isn't even that it doesn't sound accurate to a real-world example of the amp, it is more jarring that it just didn't sound very good overall. It had the vibe of listening to a guitar track played through a desktop speaker. Fizzy and somewhat scooped. I am surprised that it wasn't really in the same tonal ballpark as the Axe FX or the Quad Cortex. Axe Fx was most accurate to me, but the QC sounded the best in terms of what I like. I am curious if the matched cab in the TMP is better suited for the model, but then that isn't really a good example of a tone model. If a proven IR can't work with the tone, then the tone is poorly developed.

 

[GuitarJon]

What Max Gutnik, Snr VP of Product, Fender, said in "the big Tone Master Pro" thread (on TGP), about the comparison vid;

"Regarding the TMP model - for starters, the 5150III Stealth is not the same as the other two amps demoed in the video. The circuitry is different, and was created as something very specific Ed wanted for himself...." (and that's the version, that they modeled and got approval on).

And the EVH Stealth (the only EVH modeled for now, in the TMPRo), is 6L6 tubes...

They're working to add more amp models, Soldano is one, hopefully more versions of the EVH as well

Great that he chimed in! Here's my response:

Firstly I'm very transparent in my video and thumbnail about the fact that I'm not using the stealth model. No misinformation there. Just wanted to clarify that because someone on my channel accused me for spreading misinformation.

I compared the red channels because in my opinion across all the EVH amps those channels can be dialed in to sound quite similar. Those differences can usually be dialed out by just tweaking the gain, 3-band eq and presence controls. The EVH amps are known for a specific and very characteristic tone and they all have that signature tone despite there being differences in the circuitry. As stated in my video, I've tried multiple EVH amps in my life and they all do "that thing".

The other modelers also aren't based on the same amp iteration as I have. The Fractal model is based on the regular 100w EVH and the Quad Cortex on the 100w EL34 stealth. However, as can be heard in the comparison it didn't stop those modelers from being dialed in to sound really close. Something seems to be off with the TMP model and I don't know why, but it's off.

If I were to use the stock cabs it would defeat the purpose of this test because in my opinion all modelers should be using the same IR. Every modeler loads IRs these days and it's a feature that works well for many people and the modelers to emulate the sound of using a "custom" speaker and cab. I understand (again as mentioned in the video) that there will be differences in impedance curves, the Quad Cortex and Axe Fx III surely have different impedance curves than my RedSeven reactive load however and again, it didn't stop those platforms from sounding accurate despite those differences.

And even if the overall EQ curves weren't accurate because of impedance mismatch, the dynamics and Distortion character should still be accurate, which it is not.

Guys, I made an objective comparison with no intent to make anybody look bad. I level matched everything to make the test as clear as possible. This simply is how the gear sounds. I wanted the TMP to succeed because it's a cool device. If you watch my review you can see that I'm quite positive for the most part while I also state my criticisms on things that can be improved upon. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[GuitarJon]

@GuitarJon Hey Jon, why didn't you feature the Amperium Live in the comparison?

I totally forgot!

Just a friendly reminder that unless Fender, Fractal Audio, and Neural DSP all modeled the EXACT amplifier with the EXACT component values, all three models will sound different from the real amp.

TL;DR This comparison, like most A/B comparisons, is flawed.

Why Your Amp Doesn't Sound Like Our Amp

The models in our products are based on our in-house reference amps. If a model doesn't sound like your version of that amp it won't sound like our reference amp either. Why? 1. Component accuracy and drift. The components used in tube amps are low-cost, consumer-grade parts. They typically...

forum.fractalaudio.com

Even if it's flawed, it didn't stop the Axe Fx III (with the default impedance curve) and QC from sounding pretty darn accurate.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

What Max Gutnik, Snr VP of Product, Fender, said in "the big Tone Master Pro" thread (on TGP), about the comparison vid;

"Regarding the TMP model - for starters, the 5150III Stealth is not the same as the other two amps demoed in the video. The circuitry is different, and was created as something very specific Ed wanted for himself...." (and that's the version, that they modeled and got approval on).

And the EVH Stealth (the only EVH modeled for now, in the TMPRo), is 6L6 tubes...

They're working to add more amp models, Soldano is one, hopefully more versions of the EVH as well

Great that he chimed in! Here's my response:

Firstly I'm very transparent in my video and thumbnail about the fact that I'm not using the stealth model. No misinformation there. Just wanted to clarify that because someone on my channel accused me for spreading misinformation.

I compared the red channels because in my opinion across all the EVH amps those channels can be dialed in to sound quite similar. Those differences can usually be dialed out by just tweaking the gain, 3-band eq and presence controls. The EVH amps are known for a specific and very characteristic tone and they all have that signature tone despite there being differences in the circuitry. As stated in my video, I've tried multiple EVH amps in my life and they all do "that thing".

The other modelers also aren't based on the same amp iteration as I have. The Fractal model is based on the regular 100w EVH and the Quad Cortex on the 100w EL34 stealth. However, as can be heard in the comparison it didn't stop those modelers from being dialed in to sound really close. Something seems to be off with the TMP model and I don't know why, but it's off.

If I were to use the stock cabs it would defeat the purpose of this test because in my opinion all modelers should be using the same IR. Every modeler loads IRs these days and it's a feature that works well for many people and the modelers to emulate the sound of using a "custom" speaker and cab. I understand (again as mentioned in the video) that there will be differences in impedance curves, the Quad Cortex and Axe Fx III surely have different impedance curves than my RedSeven reactive load however and again, it didn't stop those platforms from sounding accurate despite those differences.

And even if the overall EQ curves weren't accurate because of impedance mismatch, the dynamics and Distortion character should still be accurate, which it is not.

Guys, I made an objective comparison with no intent to make anybody look bad. I level matched everything to make the test as clear as possible. This simply is how the gear sounds. I wanted the TMP to succeed because it's a cool device. If you watch my review you can see that I'm quite positive for the most part while I also state my criticisms on things that can be improved upon. Don't shoot the messenger.

No worries, and you don’t need to apologize for anything. Max posted two clips on TGP, one of the real amp and one of the TMP, and he has now removed them, citing an “impedance difference.” The TMP definitely did not sound as good as the real amp in that pair of clips. It sounded similar to the difference we heard in your comparison video, in fact.

 

[James Freeman]

"Regarding the TMP model - for starters, the 5150III Stealth is not the same as the other two amps demoed in the video. The circuitry is different, and was created as something very specific Ed wanted for himself...." (and that's the version, that they modeled and got approval on).

And the EVH Stealth (the only EVH modeled for now, in the TMPRo), is 6L6 tubes...

What a load of bollocks.
And, the difference between EL34 and 6L6GC at lower master volumes is almost inaudible.

 

[GuitarJon]

What a load of bollocks.
And, the difference between EL34 and 6L6GC at lower master volumes is almost inaudible.

And besides that, EVEN if there are differences in the circuitry, they still sound like EVH 5150III. You can dial those differences out in most cases. People make way to big a deal of the differences in tone. Just tweak your amp controls folks.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

it didn't stop the Axe Fx III (with the default impedance curve) and QC from sounding pretty darn accurate.

I was surprised how well the Quad Cortex held up, actually. It had a tiny bit less top-end vs. the amp, but it was still quite close and did the best job with the low-end response, IMO.

The QC and Fractal made sense coming in at the same price point based on the audio results. The TMP, sadly, did not sound like it was the same tier of product, for this particular amp at least.

I’m really curious how much of Fender’s modeling process is unique/proprietary, and how much is just built upon common industry knowledge (Max did come from Line 6 in the earliest days of Helix, after all). The main reason I’m so curious is because the “squirrel”/aka “disembodied distortion” crackle people noticed in the TMP Princeton sounds exactly like it used to in some of Helix’s models. I’m not sure how you’d get such an identical audio artifact unless there was a high degree of similarity in the modeling algorithms.

 

[GuitarJon]

I was surprised how well the Quad Cortex held up, actually. It had a tiny bit less top-end vs. the amp, but it was still quite close and did the best job with the low-end response, IMO.

The QC and Fractal made sense coming in at the same price point based on the audio results. The TMP, sadly, did not sound like it was the same tier of product, for this particular amp at least.

I’m really curious how much of Fender’s modeling process is unique/proprietary, and how much is just built upon common industry knowledge (Max did come from Line 6 in the earliest days of Helix, after all). The main reason I’m so curious is because the “squirrel”/aka “disembodied distortion” crackle people noticed in the TMP Princeton sounds exactly like it used to in some of Helix’s models. I’m not sure how you’d get such an identical audio artifact unless there was a high degree of similarity in the modeling algorithms.

I was also positively surprised at how well the QC did here. I guess some of their amp models are more accurate than others but this one sounds great! Not exactly the same but definitely captures that essence.