(UPDATED for new FW!) EVH amp vs Axe Fx, QC and TMP...

[FuzzyAce]

And they only have to be a tiny bit off to feel weird to the player but be nearly imperceptible in the recording.

I agree with everything you said but would like to add an abstract pov. If it feels weird to the player then that changes the outcome. The performance is different. It all matters... whether the listener knows it or not.

 

[ejecta]

I just came to the conclusion that playing a modeler for me isn’t and probably won’t be in my lifetime exactly like playing my amp and that’s totally fine.

The reason why this is still being talked about IMHO is because the modelers were and still to some degree are marketed as being able to completely ape the playing of a traditional rig. I think a lot players like myself find these to be utterly false. Some people don’t notice and that’s totally fine too. Doesn’t mean me and others have golden ears etc. It means we notice things some may not. That’s totally fine. All the VS and blind taste test videos/clips are fun fodder for discussion but mean nothing in the real world.

 

[GuitarJon]

All the VS and blind taste test videos/clips are fun fodder for discussion but mean nothing in the real world.

I strongly disagree. As if sound "quality" of music gear doesn't matter? If it's one thing that modelers do, it's that they make sound.

Also, from audio you can definitely get an idea to an extent of how something feels. For example, I'm currently working on an amp vs capture comparison test. One of the capture devices sounds very different from the source. Less saturated, more stiff, more honky. I played through that and the amp as well and I guarantee you that the difference you feel is also what you hear. To a valuable extent anyway.

Otherwise you could play through something that sounds like crap but feels amazing? That doesn't exist.

 

[laxu]

I just came to the conclusion that playing a modeler for me isn’t and probably won’t be in my lifetime exactly like playing my amp and that’s totally fine.

The reason why this is still being talked about IMHO is because the modelers were and still to some degree are marketed as being able to completely ape the playing of a traditional rig. I think a lot players like myself find these to be utterly false. Some people don’t notice and that’s totally fine too. Doesn’t mean me and others have golden ears etc. It means we notice things some may not. That’s totally fine. All the VS and blind taste test videos/clips are fun fodder for discussion but mean nothing in the real world.

As a counterpoint, in my own tests through the closest equivalent signal chain, for example one of these:

1. Tube amp -> Fryette PS loadbox -> Fryette PS poweramp -> Guitar cab vs Modeler -> Fryette PS Line in -> Fryette PS poweramp -> Guitar cab.
2. Tube amp -> loadbox -> cab sims -> studio monitors vs Modeler -> cab sims -> studio monitors.

They can be made to sound and feel so close that I can't tell a difference even when playing. For scenario #1 it did require the exact right speaker impedance curve on the Fractal and that was a bit of trial and error since neither my amps or cabs were directly something modeled by Fractal. Obviously the loadbox and poweramp will have some effect on the tube amp, but it's pretty impossible to get completely 1:1 rigs with this stuff, without anything extra in between.

Tube amps into a real cab are easy because you don't have to think about any of this stuff, it'll sound pretty good if you can turn it loud enough. Maybe eventually modelers will be as well, but the tools are all there IMO.

My tube amps have been sold and I'm just enjoying the tones I'm getting from my BluGuitar, Strymon Iridium and Axe-Fx 3.

 

[Whizzinby]

Otherwise you could play through something that sounds like crap but feels amazing? That doesn't exist.

Nailed it.

 

[KHAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!!!!]

I had an OG Pod Pro rack, a Digitech GNX-2 and a Boss GT8. I never got to the point of how they "felt", because I never got the tones out of any of them I wanted, so feel was kind of irrelevant.
Got an Axe-FX Standard in 2008 and with the addition of RedWirez IR's, was finally able to get what I felt were gig worthy tones. Spent a lot of time with it using the editor. Experimenting, learning and making patches to use on gigs.
As far as feel, playing an electric guitar unplugged, a tube amp at bedroom levels or a modeller through studio monitors doesn't feel all that different.
I gigged through tube amps for over 20 years, and the Axe for 8. At gig volumes I never felt like there was a "feel deficit" using the Axe. And it was in fact much more inspiring as I could easily program the nuances in tones and effects that were unobtanium without a huge pedal board and switching system that would be ridiculous for a bar cover band, and likely cost many times what the Axe did.

And there was one other factor that trumps all of that. As the bands "sound man" running from the stage, not having to try to blend a beaming guitar cab with a mic'd signal, and try to make it sound good in the whole room, the direct approach where the signal was exactly the same every night was far superior for my situation.

 

[Orvillain]

I've run my Axe III into the return section on my JVM and my VH4, and I can get really great tones that are as good as any amp head I own. They're definitely different, in terms of frequency response and noise floor for sure, but also in terms of how fast I can get up and running; real amps are still a smidge faster than throwing up Axe Edit and selecting some stuff from a menu and turning some virtual knobs.

But here's the kicker... the thing about a valve power amp making modellers sound really good, is the exact same thing that makes us want to get rid of valve poweramps in the first place - big iron, and the weight and transportation costs that come with them.

Most of the good poweramps are valve, and most of those are bulky and heavy things. At which point... just carrying the actual amp head itself becomes much more convenient in my view.

I actually think the convenience factor of modellers is overtalked a lot of the time. They're really convenient in the studio, but for a live rig where you still want a valve poweramp and on-stage real-cab feeling?? They still require too many hoops to jump through.

I'm still a huge proponent of real amplifiers, and I don't care if Metallica have gone fully Axe FX III into FOH with IEM's. It doesn't sway my choice.

 

[GuitarJon]

I've run my Axe III into the return section on my JVM and my VH4, and I can get really great tones that are as good as any amp head I own. They're definitely different, in terms of frequency response and noise floor for sure, but also in terms of how fast I can get up and running; real amps are still a smidge faster than throwing up Axe Edit and selecting some stuff from a menu and turning some virtual knobs.

But here's the kicker... the thing about a valve power amp making modellers sound really good, is the exact same thing that makes us want to get rid of valve poweramps in the first place - big iron, and the weight and transportation costs that come with them.

Most of the good poweramps are valve, and most of those are bulky and heavy things. At which point... just carrying the actual amp head itself becomes much more convenient in my view.

I actually think the convenience factor of modellers is overtalked a lot of the time. They're really convenient in the studio, but for a live rig where you still want a valve poweramp and on-stage real-cab feeling?? They still require too many hoops to jump through.

I'm still a huge proponent of real amplifiers, and I don't care if Metallica have gone fully Axe FX III into FOH with IEM's. It doesn't sway my choice.

Real amps sure are nice!

 

[ejecta]

I strongly disagree. As if sound "quality" of music gear doesn't matter? If it's one thing that modelers do, it's that they make sound.

Also, from audio you can definitely get an idea to an extent of how something feels. For example, I'm currently working on an amp vs capture comparison test. One of the capture devices sounds very different from the source. Less saturated, more stiff, more honky. I played through that and the amp as well and I guarantee you that the difference you feel is also what you hear. To a valuable extent anyway.

Otherwise you could play through something that sounds like crap but feels amazing? That doesn't exist.

Dude I appreciate your hussle as a YouTuber minus the constant spamming of forums you tend to do… but your videos don’t tell me anything about any piece of gear that are remotely real world useful. That only happens when I have it my hands. You get zero idea on feel. What feels stiff to you may not to me. Everyone is very different.

You can tell yourself your videos have value other than the entertainment value and you can also make up straw-men arguments of things I didn’t even say to “disagree” with but there’s hard evidence in my world that’s far from the case.

 

[Orvillain]

I do think quality video clips can tell you a lot about some gear, depending on how well you jive with the creators style as well. It is hugely important.

Jon's videos are quite useful to me, because he goes for similar tones to what I go for. Conversely, someone like Burgs tells me absolutely dick all about gear, because he just doesn't play anything like me, doesn't go for the tones I go for, and isn't any kind of frame of reference for guitar playing in any shape whatsoever - for me, personally. Loads of people really rate his videos though.

That doesn't just go for amps, but it goes for effects too.

Not to go too off topic, but you can't seriously tell me that my Volante video here isn't useful and doesn't give you any idea of how the thing works and sounds:


I definitely agree you don't get the full picture, but they're not useless and they have value outside of mere entertainment.

 

[norminal]

Feel = transient (time-dependent) response characteristics.

For an extreme example, a modeler with 30ms latency might sound dead-on when recorded, but the “feel” will feel like crap.

It’s not just latency though. The way the output signal varies in response to picking attack is something you can’t really hear as a listener, but will definitely notice as a player. A guitarist with good ears & hands can make things sound the same, but might be fighting the guitar much harder to do it.

It’s the initial note attack, the sustain, the decay, and how the breakup of the amp responds to firmer/softer picking. Those are all “feel” and they’re real. And they only have to be a tiny bit off to feel weird to the player but be nearly imperceptible in the recording.

This.

In my experience, it becomes less of a thing the more saturated/higher gain the tone becomes (e.g. the type of tone @GuitarJon is dialing in for his tests).

 

[timbuck3]

I do think quality video clips can tell you a lot about some gear, depending on how well you jive with the creators style as well. It is hugely important.

Jon's videos are quite useful to me, because he goes for similar tones to what I go for. Conversely, someone like Burgs tells me absolutely dick all about gear, because he just doesn't play anything like me, doesn't go for the tones I go for, and isn't any kind of frame of reference for guitar playing in any shape whatsoever - for me, personally. Loads of people really rate his videos though.

That doesn't just go for amps, but it goes for effects too.

Not to go too off topic, but you can't seriously tell me that my Volante video here isn't useful and doesn't give you any idea of how the thing works and sounds:


I definitely agree you don't get the full picture, but they're not useless and they have value outside of mere entertainment.

c ool unit for 429$

 

[Elf]

@GuitarJon don’t let them bring you down!

 

[Jarick]

IMO feel often comes down to:
- Latency
- Low end frequencies
- Room or space sound

Real amps have minimal latency, tend to have a lot of low end from the big speakers, and will have some kind of reverb from the room. If a modeler can get close on those three, I think it is said to have good feel.

 

[riffy]

Maybe this is responding too late but; I personally don't care about the "feel". Yes, I can tell some amps feel totally different to play, but that isn't what concerns me, am concerned only about what I hear.

 

[DrewJD82]

Jon’s most recent video got Fender dudes to fix their shit while putting them on notice they can’t slack, most certainly like his videos have done for other companies over the years. That doesn’t seem useless to me, even if it doesn’t personally affect me. I’ve got zero problems with companies having to face their own marketing.

I’d also think how Jon describes dialing in the different modelers to the reference amps would be helpful for those with tweaking concerns when looking to buy a modeler.

As for the amp/modeler thing, I don’t even care anymore. Either way it’s going to get played through a real cab and I don’t need a lot of volume to get the fun shit from it I “need”. I’m so far past the point of necessity it’s absurd of me to think any of this shit is anything but “because I can” I enjoying dialing both of them in and as long as I dig the tone I’m hearing while playing I couldn’t give a fuck what it’s coming out of.

 

[DrewJD82]

Maybe this is responding too late but; I personally don't care about the "feel". Yes, I can tell some amps feel totally different to play, but that isn't what concerns me, am concerned only about what I hear.

I actually feel the same way, overall. It’s the same mentality that enjoys playing different guitars because it makes me play differently. Wrangling a stiff amp can be a good feeling but also when you stop fighting it and figure out how to exploit them for the tones they’re known for is a great way to take you out of your comfort zone.

That said, I do have an ideal metal rhythm guitar tone in my mind, it’s the mix of a JCM800 and an early 90’s Dual Rec, but the feel of a boosted 5150. That’s why I got an AxeFX, so I can eventually figure out how to make that amp. I think the Splawn Nitro might be it, I just need to spend some more time with it.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Otherwise you could play through something that sounds like crap but feels amazing? That doesn't exist.

I agree, but just want to highlight the flip-side: you can play through something that sounds great recorded, but still didn’t feel quite right to play.

I think we are more sensitive to some of the subtle differences in modelers when we are part of the human-control-feedback loop creating the sound. When we’re only listening, we’re no longer part of that closed loop, and can’t pick up on response subtleties to the same extent.

My prior reply gave the extreme example of a fixed-offset latency, but something more realistic might be a miscalibrated input which requires 15% more volume to get the right attack/crunch out of the model. A player will compensate by striking the strings harder to get the sound they expect (especially if they’re very familiar with the amp it’s emulating), and thus it might sound spot-on to the listener, but the guitarist is going to notice the extra picking effort required.

 

[FuzzyAce]

We may not all agree on feel, but at least we can all agree that tone is in the hands.

 

[SwirlyMaple]

Jon’s most recent video got Fender dudes to fix their shit while putting them on notice they can’t slack, most certainly like his videos have done for other companies over the years. That doesn’t seem useless to me, even if it doesn’t personally affect me.