Tonex, ended up sucking for me.

[JiveTurkey]

This is one of the dumbest fucking things I’ve ever read.

 

[Frodebro]

incredible how actual musicians survived with one marshall, one cab, one guitar for so long without having all the cabs and all the amps in a box

They had much better drugs and groupies. Gear wasn’t nearly as important.

 

[Frodebro]

This is one of the dumbest fucking things I’ve ever read.

But it’s exactly what you get when somebody tries to rationalize an emotional bias.

 

[SKU]

But it’s exactly what you get when somebody tries to rationalize an emotional bias.

If you read my post again you will find that it's logical and accurate. Ironically so. Hence the question, posted in multiple forms: "how is modelling cheating?". Some people understand it as stealing IP for others a personal offence due to the fact that they enjoy modelling. My initial post had a number of scenarios which described what I consider cheating. The point was not that modelling is cheating - which makes no sense, because cheating is a human act -.

 

[ian_dissonance]

Now you’re just saying stuff. In what way are PEOPLE cheating using modeling? Because they didn’t have to lug a half-stack around for a good tone?

 

[Frodebro]

If you read my post again you will find that it's logical and accurate. Ironically so. Hence the question, posted in multiple forms: "how is modelling cheating?". Some people understand it as stealing IP for others a personal offence due to the fact that they enjoy modelling. My initial post had a number of scenarios which described what I consider cheating. The point was not that modelling is cheating - which makes no sense, because cheating is a human act -.

Digital can do things that are impossible in the analog world, and many people are utilizing those capabilities to take their music in directions that would otherwise not happen.

 

[pipelineaudio]

This is one of the dumbest fucking things I’ve ever read.

Have you ever read anything Paul Reed Smith said about tonewood? Or pretty much anyone in the gurusphere says about mic preamps? Or audiophiles say about cables?

 

[ian_dissonance]

Or audiophiles say about cables?

This one of my favorite taking-a-shit reads. The laughter helps keep things moving.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Then as you read upwards in the logs you'll start finding some mentions of "SPICE" which is what people refer to when they talk about component based modelling.

As a company who uses SPICE modelling in certain capacities for our software products, I can tell you that we are MILES from profiling when using this technique.

I WISH we could figure how to do the same thing with profiling. I actually see other companies sort of doing it, but we can't seem to get 100% there with profiling

 

[SKU]

As a company who uses SPICE modelling in certain capacities for our software products, I can tell you that we are MILES from profiling when using this technique.

I WISH we could figure how to do the same thing with profiling. I actually see other companies sort of doing it, but we can't seem to get 100% there with profiling

Christoph Kemper, himself, once described how the Kemper works. In short it has two or three base amp models with multiple variables - more than what we see on the interface. The profiling process tries to fit one of the base models to the test tone by varying the variables.
I suppose this is what Tonex does but applied to a model with more variables. Maybe Kemper works the same way but it came out long before the "AI" craze.
The document I linked, by Cliff, tells, tongue in cheek, the same thing.

So to your idea, a path to explore could be defining a set of parameters out of the important components in your circuit and apply a similar method. But you are probably talking about fitting the circuit schematic itself ...

 

[northern_fox]

I suppose this is what Tonex does but applied to a model with more variables. Maybe Kemper works the same way but it came out long before the "AI" craze.

Tonex/NAM and some others at least are fundamentally different here. The "base model" is not an analytical model of a guitar amp with parameters that are adjusted and matched (presumably what kemper and * maybe * QC do), but a full on machine learning model which trains from scratch. This is why the ML stuff generally requires a GPU for training vs what the hardware units do onboard.

Basically the ML model can learn whatever you give it (within acceptable range), but a kemper and a QC for example will have more difficulty capturing some things accurately or at all. The training parameters for ML are tuned to help create the best results for amp-like signals, but beyond that (for NAM at least) it's not even guitar/amp specific

 

[DrewJD82]

You see, nothing changed. You can still get an amp, a cab and a guitar and it would still require the same amount of effort today. Probably even more so because accommodating such a setup would require a more select rental space on top of the inflated prices on gear. If you already have the space and the money then you put the effort in some other venue in your life instead of music so you didn't paid your due to the music. If you go the easy route, simulations, which by all means is absolutely not the same as running the real things then you didn't invest the same energy as someone who uses the real things. If you indeed spent the energy to learn the craft, explored all that is to be explored and finally choose to go the easy route then you can see it as a reward. But starting fresh and choosing the easy route means you're trying to cheat and that'll never work. And yeah ... having subscribers on YT doesn't amount to anything. That's not art. That's marketing.

Holy shit, if we banned people for the shittiest possible take, you’d definitely be the first one to be awarded the ban before it becomes cool. I don’t know if you’re using a sock to filter the spray paint before you huff it, but get thicker socks or upgrade to Krylon.

What exactly do you do with your gear? I think I heard a sound clip before, but anything worthwhile? Or does it serve as some imaginary trump card you use those ridiculous mental gymnastics to pull out of your ass on forums as a way of trying to speak down to people?

In case you’re not aware, your posts come off as the latter and not the former. Bad form.

The living room rig in my apartment says “Suck my balls”

 

[SKU]

Holy shit, if we banned people for the shittiest possible take, you’d definitely be the first one to be awarded the ban before it becomes cool. I don’t know if you’re using a sock to filter the spray paint before you huff it, but get thicker socks or upgrade to Krylon.

What exactly do you do with your gear? I think I heard a sound clip before, but anything worthwhile? Or does it serve as some imaginary trump card you use those ridiculous mental gymnastics to pull out of your ass on forums as a way of trying to speak down to people?

In case you’re not aware, your posts come off as the latter and not the former. Bad form.

The living room rig in my apartment says “Suck my balls”

View attachment 21450

All I said applies to me as well. And if that's all the gear you own then I'm far more guilty
Dig the Orville.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I don’t know if you’re using a sock to filter the spray paint before you huff it, but get thicker socks or upgrade to Krylon.

Dying

 

[DrewJD82]

All I said applies to me as well. And if that's all the gear you own then I'm far more guilty
Dig the Orville.

You can just leave it at “Applies to me” because you have no clue why people me the gear or living space choices they’ve made and any bullshit about “earning” it exists in your mind only. I bought more tube amps when doing the “I’m a dumbass and believe I have to sacrifice financial stability for a career in music” than I did as a homeowner when I made considerably more money and now I live in an apartment and make more money than I did when I was a homeowner.

Yeah, I busted my ass as a musician for a long time, but I don’t feel THAT aspect of things “earned” me the right or privildedge or any weird shit attached to owning a piece of gear any more than someone who picked up a guitar 5 months ago and bought their first tube amp or modeler last week.

As long as they’re loving the experience of playing through it and they didn’t steal it, they’ve earned the joy of being a musician and anything else is some dick measuring/insecurity shit.

 

[SKU]

You can just leave it at “Applies to me” because you have no clue why people me the gear or living space choices they’ve made and any bullshit about “earning” it exists in your mind only. I bought more tube amps when doing the “I’m a dumbass and believe I have to sacrifice financial stability for a career in music” than I did as a homeowner when I made considerably more money and now I live in an apartment and make more money than I did when I was a homeowner.

Yeah, I busted my ass as a musician for a long time, but I don’t feel THAT aspect of things “earned” me the right or privildedge or any weird shit attached to owning a piece of gear any more than someone who picked up a guitar 5 months ago and bought their first tube amp or modeler last week.

As long as they’re loving the experience of playing through it and they didn’t steal it, they’ve earned the joy of being a musician and anything else is some dick measuring/insecurity shit.

You actually considered having a career in music?

 

[Frodebro]

You actually considered having a career in music?

I tried it in my younger days. Managed a music store, taught guitar, and gigged 150+ nights a year. Way too much work for way too little money, and this was long before the internet so there wasn't even the option of being the condescending, hot shit "I do this for a living" know-it-all.

 

[DrewJD82]

You actually considered having a career in music?

I made enough of a go at it that I won’t have any regrets about not doing so when I’m on my deathbed. The career aspect was more of an offshoot/perk, I just wanted to write awesome music with my brothers and play it on stages all over the world, which was part of my problem.

 

[SKU]

I tried it in my younger days. Managed a music store, taught guitar, and gigged 150+ nights a year. Way too much work for way too little money, and this was long before the internet so there wasn't even the option of being the condescending, hot shit "I do this for a living" know-it-all.

Never been there but I I imagine it must be less glamorous after a certain age unless you make it. These days, there's no more making it in that sense, I guess.

In any case my first post was meant to touch on the idea that it's more about the playing and less about the number of amps and cabs. And for the second, yes, I do believe that buying a digital box thinking that you'll get the same as the guy who paid in different ways by being forced to use an amp is impossible. And by getting the same and paying I don't mean anything related to tone. All effort is recompensed whether that is being forced to use one amp and knowing it inside and out, having to carry heavy gear, spending 10 hours of day practicing when other people are out dating, living the musician life and getting through hard times when you could do something else etc.
And I also believe that someone who is comfortable is most areas can't really do music. Something needs to give ...

 

[[Nathan]]

Christoph Kemper, himself, once described how the Kemper works. In short it has two or three base amp models with multiple variables - more than what we see on the interface. The profiling process tries to fit one of the base models to the test tone by varying the variables.
I suppose this is what Tonex does but applied to a model with more variables. Maybe Kemper works the same way but it came out long before the "AI" craze.
The document I linked, by Cliff, tells, tongue in cheek, the same thing.

NAM/ToneX/Tonocracy/Proteus / Anything pytorch/tensorflow related are creating neural models from scratch based on the source audio vs the amped audio

Kemper/QC (I believe) are using some kind of base amp/distortion models through a series of EQ filters and secret sauce EQ matching.