Those Seymour Duncan Powerstage amps are utter tripe

[JiveTurkey]

I don't want Orange sauce on my Fractal. Unless it's an Orange model. In which case I want FAS providing that.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I don't want Orange sauce on my Fractal. Unless it's an Orange model. In which case I want FAS providing that.

Is it Orange Sauce? Maybe. It just seemed to color the tone too much, and wasn’t quite as clear.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Is it Orange Sauce? Maybe. It just seemed to color the tone too much, and wasn’t quite as clear.

Warm and murky overall. Fine if you want that but I don't. Still need to try the TB 202 but that is probably not going to happen at this point.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Warm and murky overall. Fine if you want that but I don't. Still need to try the TB 202 but that is probably not going to happen at this point.

Yeah warm and murky is a perfect description. Not so murky that it’s completely shit, just enough to be meh.

 

[EOengineer]

I strongly feel that there’s a missing product in the modeling power amplification space. Blug is really close with his stuff. He really should just put out the AMP1 poweramp with some MIDI controllability.

 

[Eagle]

I strongly feel that there’s a missing product in the modeling power amplification space. Blug is really close with his stuff. He really should just put out the AMP1 poweramp with some MIDI controllability.

I agree.

 

[laxu]

I strongly feel that there’s a missing product in the modeling power amplification space. Blug is really close with his stuff. He really should just put out the AMP1 poweramp with some MIDI controllability.

He said in one live stream he'd like to do something like that, but it might only happen when the Amp X is out. So I wouldn't expect to see something like that until 2026 at least.

Used Amp 1 ME/Iridium units aren't super expensive, so it's a viable option. Plus you get a kickass amp in itself.

 

[EOengineer]

He said in one live stream he'd like to do something like that, but it might only happen when the Amp X is out. So I wouldn't expect to see something like that until 2026 at least.

Used Amp 1 ME/Iridium units aren't super expensive, so it's a viable option. Plus you get a kickass amp in itself.

Yeah I’ve wanted a mercury for a long time but have resisted because I have a lot of Marshall flavored gear already. I’ve started talking with my amp tech about prototyping something.

I bet Blug has a lot of his resources tied up in the X.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I strongly feel that there’s a missing product in the modeling power amplification space. Blug is really close with his stuff. He really should just put out the AMP1 poweramp with some MIDI controllability.

I've already designed the perfect power amp for Quilter. They just have to build it.

ToneBlock 202 x2, remove preamp section, 200w x2, switchable stereo to bridged 400w. Size of maybe a thick Powerstage 700.

 

[EOengineer]

I've already designed the perfect power amp for Quilter. They just have to build it.

ToneBlock 202 x2, remove preamp section, 200w x2, switchable stereo to bridged 400w. Size of maybe a thick Powerstage 700.

It should shoot fire pillars when you palm mute.

 

[ucnick]

FWIW Quilter approaches class D a bit differently. I was corresponding with Pat Quilter back in 2016 about power output of the Tone Block 200 and he had this to say, which doesn't really address the transient aspects (upon which I agree with Cliff regarding the Reservoir caps) but a pretty good explanation of the relationship between output impedance and feel:

"Ideally a perfect amp with perfect power supply will produce a certain “rms” power (defined by convention as the maximum unclipped sine wave), and exactly double that power when pushed into maximum square wave clipping. A good solid state amp can approach this ideal, since it can get very close to the voltage rails before clipping. However, in the world of vintage tube amps many “non ideal” effects occur that affect this relationship, mostly to the benefit of the music.

--A tube amp clips gradually and stops somewhat short of the voltage rail, so the “point of clipping” is vague and traditionally defined at about 5% distortion, which actually is already clipping somewhat. So “full clip” is not twice this level but somewhat less.

--Furthermore, the power supply sags, so the peak voltage during heavy clipping is slightly less than the instantaneous peak of the maximum unclipped sine wave, further reducing the theoretical 2:1 relationship. This helps balance the volumes of “maximum rhythm” and “full lead” passages.

--On the other hand, when you switch the tube amp from a resistive bench load (where we observed all these behaviors) to an actual speaker, there’s appreciably more voltage swing at frequencies where the speaker impedance rises, since the tube and transformer have significant series resistance. This makes the tube amp sound bigger through a real speaker than the “ideal solid state amp” whose output voltage remains fixed regardless of load impedance.



We model all this behavior in the preamp, and use a specially adjusted Class-D amp with high output impedance, which duplicates the speaker behavior of a vintage tube amp, thus producing a very similar response and “feel”."

 

[ucnick]

Warm and murky overall. Fine if you want that but I don't. Still need to try the TB 202 but that is probably not going to happen at this point.

Mine works fine for me. Quilters are... different.

 

[paisleywookiee]

FWIW Quilter approaches class D a bit differently. I was corresponding with Pat Quilter back in 2016 about power output of the Tone Block 200 and he had this to say, which doesn't really address the transient aspects (upon which I agree with Cliff regarding the Reservoir caps) but a pretty good explanation of the relationship between output impedance and feel:

"Ideally a perfect amp with perfect power supply will produce a certain “rms” power (defined by convention as the maximum unclipped sine wave), and exactly double that power when pushed into maximum square wave clipping. A good solid state amp can approach this ideal, since it can get very close to the voltage rails before clipping. However, in the world of vintage tube amps many “non ideal” effects occur that affect this relationship, mostly to the benefit of the music.

--A tube amp clips gradually and stops somewhat short of the voltage rail, so the “point of clipping” is vague and traditionally defined at about 5% distortion, which actually is already clipping somewhat. So “full clip” is not twice this level but somewhat less.

--Furthermore, the power supply sags, so the peak voltage during heavy clipping is slightly less than the instantaneous peak of the maximum unclipped sine wave, further reducing the theoretical 2:1 relationship. This helps balance the volumes of “maximum rhythm” and “full lead” passages.

--On the other hand, when you switch the tube amp from a resistive bench load (where we observed all these behaviors) to an actual speaker, there’s appreciably more voltage swing at frequencies where the speaker impedance rises, since the tube and transformer have significant series resistance. This makes the tube amp sound bigger through a real speaker than the “ideal solid state amp” whose output voltage remains fixed regardless of load impedance.



We model all this behavior in the preamp, and use a specially adjusted Class-D amp with high output impedance, which duplicates the speaker behavior of a vintage tube amp, thus producing a very similar response and “feel”."

 

[DLC86]

We model all this behavior in the preamp, and use a specially adjusted Class-D amp with high output impedance, which duplicates the speaker behavior of a vintage tube amp, thus producing a very similar response and “feel”."

I guess this just means that the frequency response is not flat but it is affected by the load like a tube amp, so pairing it with a modeler that already simulates the speaker impedance curve will create exagerated bass and treble and not be authentic at all.

I suspect the reason why some prefer this or tube power amps with modelers is exactly this emphasis on lows and highs that make all amps sound "bigger".

Anyone who has a fractal and a flat class A/B or D power amp should try to measure the impedance curve of his cab and replicate it in the speaker page of the amp block, ime that's how you get full realism from a power amp + cab setup.

 

[BenIfin]

I ran an SD 170 for some gigs ..... I thought it sounded good ... then I directly A/B'ed it against a Matrix GT800 I borrowed to try out ..... very easy decision ...sold the SD .... bought the Matrix GT800 ... never looked back

 

[Orvillain]

I suspect the reason why some prefer this or tube power amps with modelers is exactly this emphasis on lows and highs that make all amps sound "bigger".

Yes, but (as far as I know, someone like @jay mitchell or @FractalAudio can correct me) a tube amp is not linear or static in this respect. The impedance interaction between the speaker changes across the frequency range, and certain styles of playing or certain note ranges will have a kind of response that is different to others.

At least this is what my ears tell me. I don't think it is the same thing as just linearly and statically boosting lows and highs like you would with an EQ.

I tried boosting the lows with the Powerstage 200 when I had it. It just made the whole thing sound even shitter. In fact adjusting the EQ at all coloured the signal in a really displeasing way.

 

[DLC86]

Yes, but (as far as I know, someone like @jay mitchell or @FractalAudio can correct me) a tube amp is not linear or static in this respect. The impedance interaction between the speaker changes across the frequency range, and certain styles of playing or certain note ranges will have a kind of response that is different to others.

At least this is what my ears tell me. I don't think it is the same thing as just linearly and statically boosting lows and highs like you would with an EQ.

100% correct and I didn't say it's just an EQ, maybe I over-simplified it in my previous post... it's a complex interaction which affects how all the components of a tube power amp clip and compress the signal too, the change in the frequency response is just a small part of that.

But the point is that it is redundant if the modeler already replicates that behaviour by itself.
Furthermore, I don't think the quilter can replicate that complex behaviour (except the altered frequency response) since it's still a class D solid state amp.

I tried boosting the lows with the Powerstage 200 when I had it. It just made the whole thing sound even shitter. In fact adjusting the EQ at all coloured the signal in a really displeasing way.

Did you try measuring the impedance curve of your cab and replicating it in the amp block?

 

[Jarick]

I like the Blackstar Amped 1 for power amp purposes. The tube power amp selection is nice to get some different tone and feel at low volumes. But i worry about extra latency and mucking up the tone.

So been running into my orange rocker 15 effects return and it’s nice. Not much different though to be honest.

I’m intrigued by the orange pedal baby but if I get anything else I’d like stereo.

 

[Orvillain]

But the point is that it is redundant if the modeler already replicates that behaviour by itself.

I'm afraid this is not the case.

 

[DLC86]

I'm afraid this is not the case.

We could argue there's still something missing in the simulation or that it's still not 100% realistic, but what's already there is definitely redundant (frequency response being the most evident redundancy)