Those Seymour Duncan Powerstage amps are utter tripe

[Orvillain]

On this topic, we don’t have to pretend

Don't be a c*nt. I've laid out my position pretty clearly. I disagree that speakers are there "just to move air" - if that were true, there wouldn't be so much variance in the market, and everyone would just be using K100's !!!

It's a laughable thing to say, given the history of loudspeaker design and the reality of electro-mechanics.

 

[yeky83]

But that isn't accurate. I am engaging with it. I'm telling you exactly what I think the differences are. Let me make it clearer:

Valve poweramp == Low dampening factor == speaker is able to move more freely == movement is to some extent more unpredictable.
Class D SS poweramp == High dampening factor == speaker is more controlled leading to a more precise response == movement is more predictable.

If your modeller is setup to give you a gooey squishy vintage style of tone, but you're using a Class D poweramp with a high dampening factor, then your modeller is setup to create one "feel" and your power amplification is setup to create another. There's an incongruence in the entire system there.

Speakers are not just there to move air.

I have a pencil tool in photoshop. I use it to draw a line and print it with graphite ink (dunno if such thing exists or works well, but work with me here)
=
I draw a line on the computer. I print it using one of those pencil printers.

 

[FractalAudio]

Was hoping you'd chime in Cliff! Thanks in advance.

I guess central to this particular thread - solid state poweramps (like the Powerstage) - would you say it is possible to get the same speaker impedance reactivity when connecting one of these to your real world cabinet, when compared to a traditional valve amplifier connected to the same cabinet?

I understand this system can be modelled internally within the digital realm. My focus though is when you come out of the digital realm and back into the analog realm. It would seem to my laymen brain, that you lose the reactivity with the real physical speaker?

IE: Traditional valve amp into 4x12 cab is giving you an extra level of reactivity, that a valve preamp into a solid state poweramp and then into a 4x12, cannot give you.

I think you can even take modelling out of the discussion. I don't think it is very relevant.

A speaker responds to the voltage on its terminals. If you model everything accurately and then simply amplify that signal and send it to a speaker the results will be the same. The hard parts are modeling it accurately and amplifying it correctly.

Modeling it accurately means modeling the speaker impedance which is often not known and accurately modeling the I-V relationship of the power tubes. The latter is extremely difficult and requires a lot of processing power. Inexpensive products use waveshaping and EQ approaches. We use nonlinear ODEs and iterative solvers.

Amplifying it correctly means an amplifier with significant power reserves. Most of these small, cheap Class-D amps simply don't have the power reserves to replicate a cranked 100W tube amp. The transient response is lost because the amplifier runs out of energy. They aren't designed for these sorts of applications. They're meant for low-cost consumer applications.

High-end solid-state amps, whether Class-AB, Class-D, Class-G, etc. (i.e. Crown, QSC, etc.) have the requisite energy reserves and I bet anyone would be hard-pressed to tell the difference in an A/B test (assuming the speaker impedance were set correctly).

I've done tests comparing various 100W amps using a Crown K2 and, a Matrix (something, forget the actual model but it was 1000W+) . The differences were negligible IMO. In fact, I could tweak the speaker impedance curve and end up with something that actually sounded better.

It really depends on your application. At loud stage volumes an inexpensive Class-D power amp isn't the right tool for the job. In a small club application then it's probably fine. Don't confuse misapplication with some nebulous physical shortcoming of the various technologies.

 

[Orvillain]

Im gonna get a better ss Poweramp and compare myself then.

 

[laxu]

Im gonna get a better ss Poweramp and compare myself then.

Don't forget to play with the speaker impedance curves on your Fractal.

When I was putting the Axe-Fx 3 against the tube amps I had, all through a Fryette PS-100, I found that the speaker impedance curve was the last thing that made the models feel the same.

Could never figure out custom curves though, the differences are hard to perceive, so I instead just found the closest curve that seemed to do the same thing.

The only solid-state amp I've used with modelers is my BluGuitar and it's probably a lot better than the ICEPower module stuff.

 

[DLC86]

Amplifying it correctly means an amplifier with significant power reserves. Most of these small, cheap Class-D amps simply don't have the power reserves to replicate a cranked 100W tube amp. The transient response is lost because the amplifier runs out of energy. They aren't designed for these sorts of applications. They're meant for low-cost consumer applications.

Is this true even if this cheap power amp is rated for 700W but you only use it at around 100W?

 

[JiveTurkey]

Orv; why in the WORLD would you even worry about the Dunkin PowerTurd with that amp pile in your possession

 

[Orvillain]

Orv; why in the WORLD would you even worry about the Dunkin PowerTurd with that amp pile in your possession

Neighbour complained today about the volume. Fucking old hag cvnt next door.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Neighbour complained today about the volume. Fucking old hag cvnt next door.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

Neighbour complained today about the volume. Fucking old hag cvnt next door.

Learn some Glenn Miller tunes.... she'll love you!

 

[yeky83]

Neighbour complained today about the volume. Fucking old hag cvnt next door.

Forget the valve power amp & speaker interaction, you’re not gonna get the loud volume & ear-brain interaction at lower levels just cus you went with a SS amp, I foresee failure and a walk away going “SS IS WANK”

 

[Orvillain]

Forget the valve power amp & speaker interaction, you’re not gonna get the loud volume & ear-brain interaction at lower levels just cus you went with a SS amp, I foresee failure and a walk away going “SS IS WANK”

The worst thing was, I had a fucking sick riffs going at not a loud volume, but the neighbour is some old biddy with hearing aids and she was pissed off she couldn't hear strictly come scrapyard challenge or whatever ..

Then I forgot the riff. Been pissed off all day about it.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I ran an SD 170 for some gigs ..... I thought it sounded good ... then I directly A/B'ed it against a Matrix GT800 I borrowed to try out ..... very easy decision ...sold the SD .... bought the Matrix GT800 ... never looked back

Too bad Matrix is more or less defunct.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

The worst thing was, I had a fucking sick riffs going at not a loud volume, but the neighbour is some old biddy with hearing aids and she was pissed off she couldn't hear strictly come scrapyard challenge or whatever ..

Then I forgot the riff. Been pissed off all day about it.

At volumes-not-loud-enough-for-neighbors-to-hear, (1) I haven’t noticed much difference between a WIDE range of stuff, from the stupid Mooer Pedal Baby, to old 90s era Yamaha stereo receiver, to huge 30 pound Crown 400 watt PA amps. (2). I also don’t enjoy playing through real cabs at that volume. Talk about non-swollen ball bass transients.

 

[paisleywookiee]

Neighbour complained today about the volume. Fucking old hag cvnt next door.

You can say "c*nt"; you're British. I can't say it, since I'm American. I was told this here before, so you might as well take advantage of being British.

EDIT

Oh wow, that's edited!? Interesting! What about "prick"?

EDIT AGAIN

Nope, "prick" stands. That's sexist, guys.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

You can say "c*nt"; you're British. I can't say it, since I'm American. I was told this here before, so you might as well take advantage of being British.

EDIT

Oh wow, that's edited!? Interesting! What about "prick"?

Just substitute c*nt for twat waffle....it works.

 

[Orvillain]

Minge socket.

 

[DLC86]

The worst thing was, I had a fucking sick riffs going at not a loud volume, but the neighbour is some old biddy with hearing aids and she was pissed off she couldn't hear strictly come scrapyard challenge or whatever ..

Then I forgot the riff. Been pissed off all day about it.

You can come play your riffs in my neighbour-c*nt-proof underground basement

 

[ucnick]

A speaker responds to the voltage on its terminals. If you model everything accurately and then simply amplify that signal and send it to a speaker the results will be the same. The hard parts are modeling it accurately and amplifying it correctly.

Modeling it accurately means modeling the speaker impedance which is often not known and accurately modeling the I-V relationship of the power tubes. The latter is extremely difficult and requires a lot of processing power. Inexpensive products use waveshaping and EQ approaches. We use nonlinear ODEs and iterative solvers.

Amplifying it correctly means an amplifier with significant power reserves. Most of these small, cheap Class-D amps simply don't have the power reserves to replicate a cranked 100W tube amp. The transient response is lost because the amplifier runs out of energy. They aren't designed for these sorts of applications. They're meant for low-cost consumer applications.

High-end solid-state amps, whether Class-AB, Class-D, Class-G, etc. (i.e. Crown, QSC, etc.) have the requisite energy reserves and I bet anyone would be hard-pressed to tell the difference in an A/B test (assuming the speaker impedance were set correctly).

I've done tests comparing various 100W amps using a Crown K2 and, a Matrix (something, forget the actual model but it was 1000W+) . The differences were negligible IMO. In fact, I could tweak the speaker impedance curve and end up with something that actually sounded better.

It really depends on your application. At loud stage volumes an inexpensive Class-D power amp isn't the right tool for the job. In a small club application then it's probably fine. Don't confuse misapplication with some nebulous physical shortcoming of the various technologies.

Hear, hear!!!

 

[SillyOctpuss]