Sell Outs

[FuzzyAce]

My big toe on my left foot is a total sell out. The rest of me? Not so much.

I kind of don't know what artistic integrity means anymore, since each artist
is essentially able to define it on their own terms, even if his or her fans end
up defining it differently. How is someone who loves 3 chord Pop and writes
watered down lyrics exhibiting less integrity than the Art-Punk band that is
purely making noise for the sake of making noise??

I mean, fuck, dude---we live in an Era where the most rebellious and revolutionary
music ever made is now used in commercials and movies to hock the latest
corporate wares. I kind of feel like the Earth has already been scorched and all we
are doing is debating the virtue (or lack thereof) of the ashes.

Geez man, thanks for the positive talk!


(you're right though)

 

[State of Epicicity]

My big toe on my left foot is a total sell out. The rest of me? Not so much.

I kind of don't know what artistic integrity means anymore, since each artist
is essentially able to define it on their own terms, even if his or her fans end
up defining it differently. How is someone who loves 3 chord Pop and writes
watered down lyrics exhibiting less integrity than the Art-Punk band that is
purely making noise for the sake of making noise??

I mean, fuck, dude---we live in an Era where the most rebellious and revolutionary
music ever made is now used in commercials and movies to hock the latest
corporate wares. I kind of feel like the Earth has already been scorched and all we
are doing is debating the virtue (or lack thereof) of the ashes.

You brought it right to the point of the thread really well. I wanted to see how each individual defines it. It’s really philosophy, and you can reason and argue this so many ways, but it’s interesting to me to see how people consider these questions. I think it’s all related to your general philosophical approaches in life, so I look at this thread not as trying to answer a question in an all encompassing or inarguably objective sense, but just as a way to compare thoughts.

I love a ton of pop music, and I love a ton of simplistic music in general, none of the stuff I love feels like the product of selling out. To me it’s definable in the same way your sense of a person is when you know them. It’s instinctual, intuitive.

But that section of the Fractal thread dealing with name dropping Adam Levine, the Jonas Brothers, and Selena Gomez made me just wonder where the line is for other people, and how one reasons their way to that point. I always think in terms of values, trying to find out the right value for the situation, what is the way to consider this thing in front of me in a way I’d consider moral? Is my reasoning solid? Are my assumptions valid? Am I full of bullshit and just avoiding a more important question?

So when I consider the idea of integrity, posed in the context of selling out, that brings up a million questions like this, and I always wonder how other people think of it. I’m never expecting agreement or disagreement. I can never quite expect other people’s reasoning, so it’s always cool for me to gain a little bit more understanding in general by asking an open ended question like my OP. It’s just interesting to me, in the end.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

Man, I couldn't disagree more. To me that's the most cynical and depressing view. If everyone is a sell out, then integrity isn't really a value that has a meaning.

Integrity don’t feed no one.

It’s like the guy doing 9-5 not wanting a raise.

As for playing music you think sucks, maybe that’s where they actually at.

Easy to discuss it, without having been there.

 

[laxu]

KISS to me is a good example of a band that sold out. How many farewell tours have they done at this point? They have really run it as a straight up business.

For individual guitarists, remember when Zakk Wylde would slap his name on just about anything? To me there's some dishonesty in putting your name on gear you would not use yourself. Similarly things like a Gibson Jimi Hendrix Strat are a real sellout move from his estate.

Metallica to me is just a stadium level band that no longer has it in the songwriting department. It's honestly hard to be "authentically" angry at the world when you are wealthy middle-aged people with families etc. compared to being young and hungry for recognition.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

KISS to me is a good example of a band that sold out. How many farewell tours have they done at this point? They have really run it as a straight up business.

For individual guitarists, remember when Zakk Wylde would slap his name on just about anything? To me there's some dishonesty in putting your name on gear you would not use yourself. Similarly things like a Gibson Jimi Hendrix Strat are a real sellout move from his estate.

Metallica to me is just a stadium level band that no longer has it in the songwriting department. It's honestly hard to be "authentically" angry at the world when you are wealthy middle-aged people with families etc. compared to being young and hungry for recognition.

I get where you coming from, but look at it this way. I was retired 15 years ago, then 2008 happened and I had to make bread again

So off on questionable tours I went and taught at college in India.

Playing in my own band where the others insisted we add covers. I let that one slide.

After coming back to Germany every one I knew was trying to make do stupid things…like cover or tribute bands.
I decided I rather teach than do that.

So my only gig these days is playing for Atma Anur and mostly I don’t leave the house for it.

 

[State of Epicicity]

Integrity don’t feed no one.

That's a pithy distillation of the justification used for so much of what is so wrong with the world, and it's not true. You can have integrity and make a living.

As for playing music you think sucks, maybe that’s where they actually at.

Define "where they actually at." So you assert on one hand that your judgment is prudent enough to disregard values and principles themselves, yet you profess humility in your basic taste in music?

Easy to discuss it, without having been there.

This is an easy way to justify whatever values you decide to betray. If you assert on one hand that we're all corrupt, and on the other, that anyone who disagrees with you has not sacrificed for their values, you're wrong on both counts. This sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.

 

[HomespunEffects]

Prompt: "what are examples of artists that could be considered a sell out?"


Yeah that's the first thing it listed KISS was #6

Metallica was the first thing I thought of as well.

 

[0XI0]

Some favorite musicians of mine have sold out.

meaning they no longer make music you like, but keep making music that 1. doesn't meet your preferences, and 2. keeps them employed.

i really dig when a band has a recorded sound and a arrangement recipe they stick to from beginning to end, In Flames is the best example i can think of. It's like AI metal, endless content that's never the same but if you like the recipe you're in hog heaven.

it REALLY pisses me off when a band comes out with a debut that's recorded with a certain sound that blows minds, but all their albums after that sound watered down and plastic. LINKIN PARK. Hybrid Theory to this day has a mix that perfectly blended hiphop/electronic/metal/rap/screams/synths. Mike did it himself, but for whatever reason decided to not make the other records sound like that. They're weak af. It takes two seconds for me to hit next when i hear a 4 on the floor kick and backbeat claps pop beat from an artist i used to like. it's the death knell beat. cause u couldn't put any more effort into a rhythm than a gd clock?!?! they still getting paid tho

i mean, this is badass




this is basically nickelsmack

 

[norminal]

As for playing music you think sucks, maybe that’s where they actually at.

Easy to discuss it, without having been there.

I’m not really following you here. Are you saying that it’s not ok to criticize music if you haven’t walked in that particular artist’s shoes?

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

That's a pithy distillation of the justification used for so much of what is so wrong with the world, and it's not true. You can have integrity and make a living.



Define "where they actually at." So you assert on one hand that your judgment is prudent enough to disregard values and principles themselves, yet you profess humility in your basic taste in music?



This is an easy way to justify whatever values you decide to betray. If you assert on one hand that we're all corrupt, and on the other, that anyone who disagrees with you has not sacrificed for their values, you're wrong on both counts. This sounds like you're trying to convince yourself.

None of the above. But I don’t purport I know why some one does what they do.

I mean Kiss I was made for loving you…they hung in disco joints maybe the dug it.
I know I hated Chic when I was 15 but at 40 dug it.

Also unless you walked a mile in their shoes you’re a fan that watches a band go a direction u don’t like.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I’m not really following you here. Are you saying that it’s not ok to criticize music if you haven’t walked in that particular artist’s shoes?

As we all know everyone is a Monday morning quarterback.
But that doesn’t mean that opinion becomes fact

 

[jay mitchell]

I've seen this argument made ad nauseum since the 1960s.

Pro tip: Anyone who wishes to be compensated for their efforts, musical or otherwise, must sell something to somebody. If you truly believe that you have "artistic values" that you refuse to compromise, you can fuhgeddabout playing with the same band long-term (because everybody's idea of what is acceptable is different), playing a gig as a sideman (which almost every musician must do at some point in their career), getting any paid recording session work (because you're gonna have to play what's required, whether you like it or not). IOW, unless you're one of a literal handful of performers worldwide, you will never be a working musician. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I knew guys who had that attitude back in the day. A few of them could play decently. After a few years of full-time gigging, I found that my chops, reading skills, and musical understanding had all developed further than theirs. And I still had the option of getting together with other players and playing just for grins.

If your idea of "artistic values" includes playing only "original" music and if you're financially independent, you can pay other musicians to come play your tunes (and to record them, if you're into that) with no concern whether you will ever find a paying audience. Otherwise, you're gonna be forced to compromise something at various points in your artistic journey. That's a fact.

 

[State of Epicicity]

I've seen this argument made ad nauseum since the 1960s.

Pro tip: Anyone who wishes to be compensated for their efforts, musical or otherwise, must sell something to somebody. If you truly believe that you have "artistic values" that you refuse to compromise, you can fuhgeddabout playing with the same band long-term (because everybody's idea of what is acceptable is different), playing a gig as a sideman (which almost every musician must do at some point in their career), getting any paid recording session work (because you're gonna have to play what's required, whether you like it or not). IOW, unless you're one of a literal handful of performers worldwide, you will never be a working musician. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I knew guys who had that attitude back in the day. A few of them could play decently. After a few years of full-time gigging, I found that my chops, reading skills, and musical understanding had all developed further than theirs. And I still had the option of getting together with other players and playing just for grins.

If your idea of "artistic values" includes playing only "original" music and if you're financially independent, you can pay other musicians to come play your tunes (and to record them, if you're into that) with no concern whether you will ever find a paying audience. Otherwise, you're gonna be forced to compromise something at various points in your artistic journey. That's a fact.

I've heard cynical arguments about the world of music ad nauseum since I started playing guitar, and in this case, I couldn't disagree more. Getting paid doesn't equal selling out. Artistic values and playing original music are mutually exclusive; they can overlap if that's your choice, but it's not some imperical inescapable moral conundrum. Itzak Perlman didn't play a lot of originals. If one blankets any field in statements like those, it's easy to dismiss moral argument of any kind. "If no values are possible, how are value judgments possible?" is the essence of this kind of argument. People may have made those bullshit arguments to you in the past, but that's some ill-formed reasoning right there.

You can collaborate with other musicians, form bands, work as a hired gun, and still maintain integrity; it has to do with what your values are, and that's what I'm trying to find out underneath this. The idea of selling out implies that there is a value that has been sold. So what is the value? Can there be a value in the world of music? What values exist to you? Those are the interesting questions. To say "its a business" yada yada yada, you're just pushing forth more of the ill-formed reasoning.

Artists live and die by "artistic values." Mocking them as naive betrays a lack of respect for values themselves.

 

[jay mitchell]

Getting paid doesn't equal selling out.

Define "selling out." Then, be aware that your idea of "selling out" doesn't coincide with everyone else's. To preempt any possible challenge, here are some examples of what I consider to be "selling out:"

1. A bandleader who says the band will split the money equally who then surreptitiously takes a much larger cut. This is opposed to a leader/sideman arrangement.
2. A businessman who relies on deceiving their customers in order to make a profit.
3. A venue owner who shorts a band after they've performed for a previously-agreed-on amount. Back in the day, it was not unheard of for a band's manager to carry a weapon in order to persuade reluctant club owners.
4. A manager who signs a performer to an exploitative contract, taking almost all of the artist's revenues as a result.
5. A record label that does the same thing as in 4.

All of the above have happened either to myself or to people whom I know well. It's not conjecture.

Artistic values and playing original music are mutually exclusive;

They are not. Having one does not exclude the other.

Itzak Perlman didn't play a lot of originals.

That's irrelevant. Are there any players here who are remotely close to that level of expertise? We can both agree that he has not sold out without altering a single point I've made.

If one blankets any field in statements like those, it's easy to dismiss moral argument of any kind.

Since when has the notion of playing music you happen not to approve of become a "moral argument?"

"If no values are possible, how are value judgments possible?"

Said no one here. I certainly didn't say that.

You can collaborate with other musicians, form bands, work as a hired gun, and still maintain integrity;

What then is your definition of "selling out?" What are some examples of same?

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

I was thinking about this while in my cannabis garden working.

Everyone loves Randy Rhoads, original guitarist for who ....quiet riot.......yep.

But he left to go to Ozzy.....and technically....sell out...but question..in this situation is selling out a bad thing, because if he would have stayed with quiet riot....we may have never heard him ..maybe he'd still be alive?

Also, would quiet riot have become as big if they wouldn't had to pivot, due to the huge loss of Randy?

In the context of "selling out" I believe this case highlights all the pitfalls of looking at this from a hard line view ...just a thought experiment of sorts.

 

[Holden Afart]

 

[Holden Afart]

But he left to go to Ozzy.....

But did he play a bunch of shit music he didn't like just to make money? If so, he sold out.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

But did he play a bunch of shit music he didn't like just to make money? If so, he sold out.

Well if I remember correctly, he had different music motivations, and while I am sure he loved playing with Ozzy...it wasn't his actual heart, artistically....if you remember....so technically it could be adjacent.

But that really wasn't the point....it was just supposed to be a thought experiment about..... nevermind.

 

[Iron1]

For me, the definition is really simple:

Do you make music to make music

Or

Do you make music to make money

If the almighty dollar is the driving motivator in making music, or painting, or writing fiction, or sculpting or any other form of art creation, then “sold out” is applicable.

The instant someone monetized creativity, it immediately became impure. To what level that impurity infests the art is up to the artist. Regardless of what any audience member thinks.

 

[norminal]

Do you make music to make music

Or

Do you make music to make money

Insert “Why Not Both?” meme.