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Sell Outs
- Thread starter State of Epicicity
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Frodebro
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Yeah, they were Taylor Swift big back in the seventies. Except they did it on their own, without the help of corporate puppet masters.
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Well, I don't now, but I did then just because my sister loved them! And Prince is now (and for decades has been) my second favorite musical artist ever (Zappa will always be number one)!! Maybe you never had an adversarial relationship with a sibling, I did ;~))How can anyone with a pulse hate Led Zeppelin?
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Ever hear of a single band you love say they enjoy making music videos or doing photo shoots? I know I certainly haven't, quite the opposite, but nearly every band I love has done both.
And for every one of them who has ever had some decent success, they'll all say the same thing, "It's called the music business because it is a business. When I started playing guitar I didn't want to be a businessman, I wanted to be a rockstar, but you have to do both or you'll get screwed"
The barrier for entry comes with a degree of doing something you don't want to do for advancement, to get a modicum of success there's a certain amount of the game and business that has to be learned and participated in that I'm quite certain very, very few musicians really want to take part in.
And thinking back at all the times I've said "Fuck no" or "No thanks" to a request or proposition because I felt it was taking away from myself or the band I was in, maybe doing a free living room show when we were getting paid in venues, or learning some cover songs to get us into a couple more places than we were already doing, turning down acoustic duo gigs because I didn't like some of the songs, etc That's probably ALL the shit that kept me from achieving the success I was going for in my early 20's.
I know one thing for sure, I'd rather be learning new ways to play the music business game than learning new building codes, so I wish 21-year old Drew would have been a bit more open minded to the idea of 'selling out'.
And for every one of them who has ever had some decent success, they'll all say the same thing, "It's called the music business because it is a business. When I started playing guitar I didn't want to be a businessman, I wanted to be a rockstar, but you have to do both or you'll get screwed"
The barrier for entry comes with a degree of doing something you don't want to do for advancement, to get a modicum of success there's a certain amount of the game and business that has to be learned and participated in that I'm quite certain very, very few musicians really want to take part in.
And thinking back at all the times I've said "Fuck no" or "No thanks" to a request or proposition because I felt it was taking away from myself or the band I was in, maybe doing a free living room show when we were getting paid in venues, or learning some cover songs to get us into a couple more places than we were already doing, turning down acoustic duo gigs because I didn't like some of the songs, etc That's probably ALL the shit that kept me from achieving the success I was going for in my early 20's.
I know one thing for sure, I'd rather be learning new ways to play the music business game than learning new building codes, so I wish 21-year old Drew would have been a bit more open minded to the idea of 'selling out'.
norminal
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Sure it is. Imagine being at the MOMA and getting reprimanded for critiquing a painting or piece of art.
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I can see how Kiss was huge back then, my uncle started playing because of Ace and he's been able to relay his enthusiasm to me while I was having my first guitar heroes as a teen. I was born in '82 so I can only do so much to consider the times, but Kiss Alive! came out in what, '75? So there were already 5 badass Zep albums out at that point, 6 badass Sabbath albums, 2 classic Floyd albums, 4 badass Queen albums and dozens of other classic rock album masterpieces. When putting Kiss's music up against all the other music already out and coming out at the same time it really pales in comparison to me.
But I can also see how there weren't a ton of bands doing the fun, high energy thing and mixed with the theatrics I can understand how they got big. I'm hard pressed to think of much other bands that were singing about partying and rockin' out before Kiss came along in the way they did it, opening the door for the party-focused 80's. Their music still bores the shit out of me, though.
At the same time, I read one of Gene's books before I really heard anything more than their radio hits and he's a lot like Lars in his pursuit/viision not being based on the music itself. I mean, that dude makes no bones about enjoying money.
But I can also see how there weren't a ton of bands doing the fun, high energy thing and mixed with the theatrics I can understand how they got big. I'm hard pressed to think of much other bands that were singing about partying and rockin' out before Kiss came along in the way they did it, opening the door for the party-focused 80's. Their music still bores the shit out of me, though.
At the same time, I read one of Gene's books before I really heard anything more than their radio hits and he's a lot like Lars in his pursuit/viision not being based on the music itself. I mean, that dude makes no bones about enjoying money.
Frodebro
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Posts reported, infractions and suspensions issued. Thread closed for mod review.
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I was 5 in '79. My older brother had all the Kiss albums so I couldn't help but hear them. My first 45 was Another Brink in the Wall which I loved. 2nd was Men at Work, Down Under, 3rd was Kiss' I Was Made For Loving You. Loved them all. Admittedly though, at 5 or 6 I was more intrigued with Kiss' appearance. That year I went as Gene Simmons for Halloween and it was awesome.
It's a sentimental thing with me. They had some catchy songs but I don't go out of my way to listen to Kiss these days (or the last 2 decades lol).
It's a sentimental thing with me. They had some catchy songs but I don't go out of my way to listen to Kiss these days (or the last 2 decades lol).
duzie
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When I hear thisI was 5 in '79. My older brother had all the Kiss albums so I couldn't help but hear them. My first 45 was Another Brink in the Wall which I loved. 2nd was Men at Work, Down Under, 3rd was Kiss' I Was Made For Loving You. Loved them all. Admittedly though, at 5 or 6 I was more intrigued with Kiss' appearance. That year I went as Gene Simmons for Halloween and it was awesome.
Just for a moment I’ll be like a teenager again lol
paisleywookiee
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Frodebro
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State of Epicicity
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Much appreciated!
State of Epicicity
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I think there are so many shades of selling out, that a lower motivation than abandoning principles you started out with is just not having any to begin with! I think if someone’s only goal is money at all costs that’s the lowest level of sell out, that’s just soulless.
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Not to pull too much focus on Metallica, I don’t buy the argument that they were always about money primarily. I mean, they eschewed doing music videos as a matter of integrity. They hated the LA scene because they thought the cock rock bands were sell out posers. I mean, they had their own code. Sure, they can change their minds or beliefs or whatever over time, but to me it wasn’t some great advancement in thought or feeling or morality.
They stopped playing the song …And Justice For All live for a long time, and that song is one of their most ambitious. It was a very long time before they ever played Dyers Eve live, even though it was their most requested, from what I’ve read.
Their progressive stuff is challenging to play, because of the insane precision and militaristic brutality those parts exist on their albums, and it just tells me they wanted it to be easier. I never heard a live recording of them that matched their studio work, but my tastes are definitely different than what Hetfield began to favor in the 90s and beyond.
I don’t read too much from people who think Metallica sold out long ago, but I don’t think I’m part of such a small minority. Dave Lombardo said he threw the black album down a flight of stairs when he heard it. Next thing you know, all of the world of thrash followed suit, from Exodus to Overkill to Megadeth, even bands no one ever cared about, like Forbidden and Xentrix. Everything became about stripping down and simplifying. Gary Holt admitted that they were just chasing Metallica’s success.
Anyway, again, not to focus on Metallica or even thrash for that matter, I wanted to offer a counter argument for their case.
They stopped playing the song …And Justice For All live for a long time, and that song is one of their most ambitious. It was a very long time before they ever played Dyers Eve live, even though it was their most requested, from what I’ve read.
Their progressive stuff is challenging to play, because of the insane precision and militaristic brutality those parts exist on their albums, and it just tells me they wanted it to be easier. I never heard a live recording of them that matched their studio work, but my tastes are definitely different than what Hetfield began to favor in the 90s and beyond.
I don’t read too much from people who think Metallica sold out long ago, but I don’t think I’m part of such a small minority. Dave Lombardo said he threw the black album down a flight of stairs when he heard it. Next thing you know, all of the world of thrash followed suit, from Exodus to Overkill to Megadeth, even bands no one ever cared about, like Forbidden and Xentrix. Everything became about stripping down and simplifying. Gary Holt admitted that they were just chasing Metallica’s success.
Anyway, again, not to focus on Metallica or even thrash for that matter, I wanted to offer a counter argument for their case.
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Then again, money is a means to an end in many cases. So maybe that person wants to make music solely for money, so they can be comfortable while being a painter without having to compromise that artistic endeavor!! Robbing Peter to pay Paul as it were!!! Just pointing out, there are scenarios where doing it for money alone could be justified ;~)) Not in my world, but in the world of possibilities.
State of Epicicity
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Interesting you bring up that scenario specifically. Joni Mitchell only wanted to be a painter, but she ended up famous as a musician, which gave her the freedom to paint. I don’t view her as a sell out though. Even her music is weird as shit.
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Oh alright. It’s not fair to bash on bands. I just have childhood trauma from a friend who’s a major KISS fan and would never stop playing it, never stop talking about them.
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My big toe on my left foot is a total sell out. The rest of me? Not so much.
I kind of don't know what artistic integrity means anymore, since each artist
is essentially able to define it on their own terms, even if his or her fans end
up defining it differently. How is someone who loves 3 chord Pop and writes
watered down lyrics exhibiting less integrity than the Art-Punk band that is
purely making noise for the sake of making noise??
I mean, fuck, dude---we live in an Era where the most rebellious and revolutionary
music ever made is now used in commercials and movies to hock the latest
corporate wares. I kind of feel like the Earth has already been scorched and all we
are doing is debating the virtue (or lack thereof) of the ashes.
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