Sell Outs

The straw man shit has gotten really deep here. Everybody has a right to criticize anybody they like, whether or not their criticism is credible. I have never stated otherwise; I've only offered counter arguments, which some folks apparently find disturbing.

Accusations that a musician - or dancer, or actor, or comedian - is "only in it for the money" are based on completely unfounded assumptions about 1) the nature of arts-related business activities, and 2) people's motives in making artistic decisions.

I would say generally that a private-equity capitalist is "only in it for the money." Ditto a drug smuggler, pimp, extortionist, bank robber, etc., although some of those people might express a deeply-felt love for those activities. Generally, plumbers, AC techs, carpenters, are "only in it for the money," although IMO most of those folks earn every nickel they make.

George Benson had made a name for himself among jazz listeners years before the release of his "Breezin'" album. His A&R man suggested he record (and sing) "This Masquerade," a Leon Russell song. At the time, George didn't even know who Leon Russell was. That song, in combination with the title cut - a Bobby Womack tune originally recorded by Gabor Szabo - took the album to triple platinum. Oscar Peterson famously accused George of "selling out" for taking this direction. Was Oscar correct? Idunno. George still plays really cool shit that I can't touch, and he's financially far more comfortable than I'll ever be. Then there's Herbie Hancock's "Chameleon." IMO, those versions of "selling out" are vastly preferable to smuggling heroin, guns, or fentanyl, but that's just me....

Here's a classic "selling out" allbum cover:
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It’s like saying you can’t criticize a politician until you are one yourself. You have no idea the pressure they’re under haha!
Isn’t it that you’d criticise a politician on factual choices they made in their job?

How is a band changing their direction any business of anybody but the band?
If folks vote with their wallet great, but the term selling out as Jay pointed out means you have so sell something in the first place.
 
It’s like saying you can’t criticize a politician until you are one yourself. You have no idea the pressure they’re under haha!
I always like the, "You can't say anything about the service unless you've waited tables." Uh yeah, I can. (And I did, but that doesn't matter.) I've been trying to get their attention about that Bernaise sauce that I asked for when I placed my order, now for the past 5 minutes!
 
I think a much more apt example of trying to call a band a sell out is say… The String Cheese Incident performing at private party for the Koch Brothers than Metallica releasing the black album (especially given their specific anti Koch brother speech from stage a few years prior)


And even then… I bet that was one hell of a paycheck. Can’t even fault them too much there :idk
 
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I, too struggle with moral/ethical dilemmas like whether to play a I-VI-II-V turnaround instead of a V-IV-I when playing blues. Sometimes I use chord tones in solos, other times I just play pentatonic scales. Sometimes I'm artistically pure, other times I sell out. Depends on the money.....:facepalm
Which one pays better? (asking for a friend)

:rofl



Something also funny, some would consider a passionate musician a sell out for not making a career out of music, and doing other work to make money. Life isn't always that simple though of course, and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks of another's choices -- that individual has to live with those choices for better or worse.
 
Now that I'm riled up today, Rush was my 1st sell out (though they redeemed themselves) and them absolutely Metallica. I was pissed beyond belief for The Black Album.

Regardless, I've been, "over it" for a long time and realize they could change however they wanted to. Just felt like people like me, that supported them - were given the middle finger. And they have yet to redeem themselves. Have any really rich guys ever made a primo metal album? Don't think so.
 
Wikipedia on selling out (below is all copy/pasted from this linked page - you may or may not like wikipedia, but I think there are a lot of good points and examples in this material - other examples on the linked page as well including politicians, comedians, etc.)!

"Selling out", or "sold out" in the past tense, is a common expression for the compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity, or principles by forgoing the long-term benefits of the collective or group in exchange for personal gain, such as money or power. In terms of music or art, selling out is associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream or commercial audience. For example, a musician who alters their material to encompass a wider audience, and in turn generates greater revenue, may be labeled by fans who pre-date the change as a "sellout". "Sellout" also refers to someone who gives up, or disregards someone or something for some other thing or person.

Music
There are three distinct forms of "selling out" in terms of music. First, there is the use of the term "sell-out" to refer to those who sign for major labels or to those who license their music to companies for use in advertising that contradicts their apparent values. Secondly, the expression can refer to those who sacrifice their musical integrity through a change in their musical sound, sometimes due to pressure from major labels or in order to gain profit by making their music more appealing to a mainstream audience. The third form of selling out is simply to sell out a venue, which normally has nothing to do with a lapse of integrity.

Record labels and advertising
Since the time of big band radio shows, there has been an established relationship between musicians and commercialization. There had been some signs of resistance to this model as early as the 1960s, when gospel group The Blind Boys of Alabama refused to sign record deals to record secular music. It was not until the punk subculture in the 1970s that the notion that musicians should be completely independent of commercial influences began to increase in popularity. This partly manifested itself in the reluctance of bands to sign for major labels, as this would include taking part in activities that were seen as crass and overly commercial. This continued into the 1980s, when bands were scorned by fanzines for signing with major labels as the mainstream success this would bring was symptomatic of the general decay in culture. However, after a number of bands maintained the quality of their records after signing for a major label, by the end of the 1980s the focus on "selling out" shifted to advertising.

The attitude held by those who disliked the idea of "selling out" towards advertising was negative; comedian Bill Hicks claimed that any band who licensed their music for advertising was "off the artistic roll call forever", and Neil Young mocked the fact that songs became associated with brands on his 1988 album This Note's for You. However, although it was possible for fans to feel a sense of betrayal due to the relationship they developed with the song and artist, when artists did allow their music to be used for commercials others considered the advertised product to be more appealing. As CD sales fell and record companies became unwilling or unable to afford the push new bands needed to become established, sponsorship of bands by major companies began to be seen as more acceptable, with even minor record labels devoting time and money towards marketing deals with well-known brands.

By the 2010s, the use of licensing of artists in commercials had become an accepted part of the music industry, and even those who would previously have been considered part of the 1970s resistance to "selling out" have been used in advertising products, such as former Sex Pistols frontman John Lydon advertising Country Life butter and Iggy Pop endorsing car insurance. Consequently, it has been suggested that the acceptance of music in advertising is generational, as younger listeners are comfortable with the relationship to the point of indifference whilst those who have seen the industry evolve still reject it.

Musical integrity
Another definition of "selling out" refers to putting aside musical quality or original intentions in favor of commercial success, where a distinction is made for those who achieve success without changing their original sound. The difference between the two is often subjective. While artists may change their musical direction for commercial reasons, such as pressure from major labels who require songs to appeal to mass markets, a change in sound may also be part of a natural progression of creative maturity.

An example of artists being accused of "selling out" is the band Metallica, whose 1991 eponymous album has been considered the turning point in the band's musical direction; the band members were called the "poster boys for musical un-integrity" after many incorrectly thought that the band attempted to sue fans who were downloading their music through Napster. The album, known as The Black Album, saw critics and Bob Rock, the album's producer, acknowledge that there was a move away from the band's previous thrash metal sound. Rock claimed that the change stemmed from the band's desire to "make the leap to the big, big leagues", while some fans blamed Rock himself, going as far to eventually create an internet petition demanding the band cut their ties with him. However, other fans did not consider the change in sound to be significant enough to be considered "selling out", and others accepted the change as part of a natural evolution of the band's style. Ultimately The Black Album became the band's most commercially successful release, going 16× Platinum in the United States. The differing reaction by fans to the album demonstrates the difficulty in labelling an artist as a "sellout" objectively.

"Poseur" is a pejorative term, often used in the punk, heavy metal, hip hop, and goth subcultures, to describe a person who copies the dress, speech, and/or mannerisms of a group or subculture, generally for attaining acceptability within the group or for popularity among various other groups, yet who is deemed not to share or understand the values of the subculture.

While this perceived inauthenticity is viewed with scorn and contempt by members of the subculture, the definition of the term and to whom it should be applied is subjective. While the term is most associated with the 1970s- and 1980s-era punk and hardcore subculture, English use of the term originates in the late 19th century. A hardcore punk band that signed a lucrative contract with a major label would probably be labelled as poseurs.

Criticism of the term
An artist may also be accused of "selling out" after changes in artistic direction. This conclusion is often due to the perception that the reason for the artist changing artistic style or direction was simply potential material gain. This ignores other causes of artistic development, which may lead an artist in new directions from those that attracted their original fans. Artists' improvements in musical skill or change in taste may also account for the change.

Other times, artists (including those with politically oriented messages) resent the term on the grounds that the perceived desire for material gain is simply a result of the band seeking to expand its message. To such artists, not going mainstream or signing to a bigger label to avoid "selling out" prevents them from addressing a wider audience, regardless of whether or not there is any real artistic change, and arbitrarily hampers the artists' course of mainstream success. Such an accusation, then, assumes that mainstream success must be against the artists' original intentions. For example, when questioned about signing to a major label, Rage Against the Machine answered "We're not interested in preaching to just the converted. It's great to play abandoned squats run by anarchists, but it's also great to be able to reach people with a revolutionary message, people from Granada Hills to Stuttgart."[28] Similarly, when confronted with the accusation of "selling out" in 2001, Mike Dirnt of Green Day said:

"If there's a formula to selling out, I think every band in the world would be doing it. The fact that you write good songs and you sell too many of them, if everybody in the world knew how to do that they'd do it. It's not something we chose to do...The fact was we got to a point that we were so big that tons of people were showing up at punk-rock clubs, and some clubs were even getting shut down because too many were showing up. We had to make a decision: either break up or remove ourselves from that element. And I'll be damned if I was going to flip fucking burgers. I do what I do best. Selling out is compromising your musical intention and I don't even know how to do that."
 
Wikipedia on selling out (below is all copy/pasted from this linked page - you may or may not like wikipedia, but I think there are a lot of good points and examples in this material - other examples on the linked page as well including politicians, comedians, etc.)!

"Selling out", or "sold out" in the past tense, is a common expression for the compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity, or principles by forgoing the long-term benefits of the collective or group in exchange for personal gain, such as money or power. In terms of music or art, selling out is associated with attempts to tailor material to a mainstream or commercial audience. For example, a musician who alters their material to encompass a wider audience, and in turn generates greater revenue, may be labeled by fans who pre-date the change as a "sellout". "Sellout" also refers to someone who gives up, or disregards someone or something for some other thing or person.

Music
There are three distinct forms of "selling out" in terms of music. First, there is the use of the term "sell-out" to refer to those who sign for major labels or to those who license their music to companies for use in advertising that contradicts their apparent values. Secondly, the expression can refer to those who sacrifice their musical integrity through a change in their musical sound, sometimes due to pressure from major labels or in order to gain profit by making their music more appealing to a mainstream audience. The third form of selling out is simply to sell out a venue, which normally has nothing to do with a lapse of integrity.

Record labels and advertising
Since the time of big band radio shows, there has been an established relationship between musicians and commercialization. There had been some signs of resistance to this model as early as the 1960s, when gospel group The Blind Boys of Alabama refused to sign record deals to record secular music. It was not until the punk subculture in the 1970s that the notion that musicians should be completely independent of commercial influences began to increase in popularity. This partly manifested itself in the reluctance of bands to sign for major labels, as this would include taking part in activities that were seen as crass and overly commercial. This continued into the 1980s, when bands were scorned by fanzines for signing with major labels as the mainstream success this would bring was symptomatic of the general decay in culture. However, after a number of bands maintained the quality of their records after signing for a major label, by the end of the 1980s the focus on "selling out" shifted to advertising.

The attitude held by those who disliked the idea of "selling out" towards advertising was negative; comedian Bill Hicks claimed that any band who licensed their music for advertising was "off the artistic roll call forever", and Neil Young mocked the fact that songs became associated with brands on his 1988 album This Note's for You. However, although it was possible for fans to feel a sense of betrayal due to the relationship they developed with the song and artist, when artists did allow their music to be used for commercials others considered the advertised product to be more appealing. As CD sales fell and record companies became unwilling or unable to afford the push new bands needed to become established, sponsorship of bands by major companies began to be seen as more acceptable, with even minor record labels devoting time and money towards marketing deals with well-known brands.

By the 2010s, the use of licensing of artists in commercials had become an accepted part of the music industry, and even those who would previously have been considered part of the 1970s resistance to "selling out" have been used in advertising products, such as former Sex Pistols frontman John Lydon advertising Country Life butter and Iggy Pop endorsing car insurance. Consequently, it has been suggested that the acceptance of music in advertising is generational, as younger listeners are comfortable with the relationship to the point of indifference whilst those who have seen the industry evolve still reject it.

Musical integrity
Another definition of "selling out" refers to putting aside musical quality or original intentions in favor of commercial success, where a distinction is made for those who achieve success without changing their original sound. The difference between the two is often subjective. While artists may change their musical direction for commercial reasons, such as pressure from major labels who require songs to appeal to mass markets, a change in sound may also be part of a natural progression of creative maturity.

An example of artists being accused of "selling out" is the band Metallica, whose 1991 eponymous album has been considered the turning point in the band's musical direction; the band members were called the "poster boys for musical un-integrity" after many incorrectly thought that the band attempted to sue fans who were downloading their music through Napster. The album, known as The Black Album, saw critics and Bob Rock, the album's producer, acknowledge that there was a move away from the band's previous thrash metal sound. Rock claimed that the change stemmed from the band's desire to "make the leap to the big, big leagues", while some fans blamed Rock himself, going as far to eventually create an internet petition demanding the band cut their ties with him. However, other fans did not consider the change in sound to be significant enough to be considered "selling out", and others accepted the change as part of a natural evolution of the band's style. Ultimately The Black Album became the band's most commercially successful release, going 16× Platinum in the United States. The differing reaction by fans to the album demonstrates the difficulty in labelling an artist as a "sellout" objectively.

"Poseur" is a pejorative term, often used in the punk, heavy metal, hip hop, and goth subcultures, to describe a person who copies the dress, speech, and/or mannerisms of a group or subculture, generally for attaining acceptability within the group or for popularity among various other groups, yet who is deemed not to share or understand the values of the subculture.

While this perceived inauthenticity is viewed with scorn and contempt by members of the subculture, the definition of the term and to whom it should be applied is subjective. While the term is most associated with the 1970s- and 1980s-era punk and hardcore subculture, English use of the term originates in the late 19th century. A hardcore punk band that signed a lucrative contract with a major label would probably be labelled as poseurs.

Criticism of the term
An artist may also be accused of "selling out" after changes in artistic direction. This conclusion is often due to the perception that the reason for the artist changing artistic style or direction was simply potential material gain. This ignores other causes of artistic development, which may lead an artist in new directions from those that attracted their original fans. Artists' improvements in musical skill or change in taste may also account for the change.

Other times, artists (including those with politically oriented messages) resent the term on the grounds that the perceived desire for material gain is simply a result of the band seeking to expand its message. To such artists, not going mainstream or signing to a bigger label to avoid "selling out" prevents them from addressing a wider audience, regardless of whether or not there is any real artistic change, and arbitrarily hampers the artists' course of mainstream success. Such an accusation, then, assumes that mainstream success must be against the artists' original intentions. For example, when questioned about signing to a major label, Rage Against the Machine answered "We're not interested in preaching to just the converted. It's great to play abandoned squats run by anarchists, but it's also great to be able to reach people with a revolutionary message, people from Granada Hills to Stuttgart."[28] Similarly, when confronted with the accusation of "selling out" in 2001, Mike Dirnt of Green Day said:

"If there's a formula to selling out, I think every band in the world would be doing it. The fact that you write good songs and you sell too many of them, if everybody in the world knew how to do that they'd do it. It's not something we chose to do...The fact was we got to a point that we were so big that tons of people were showing up at punk-rock clubs, and some clubs were even getting shut down because too many were showing up. We had to make a decision: either break up or remove ourselves from that element. And I'll be damned if I was going to flip fucking burgers. I do what I do best. Selling out is compromising your musical intention and I don't even know how to do that."
You lost me at Wikipedia. :grin:rofl
 
Well, I don't now, but I did then just because my sister loved them! And Prince is now (and for decades has been) my second favorite musical artist ever (Zappa will always be number one)!! Maybe you never had an adversarial relationship with a sibling, I did ;~))
That's pretty adversarial though, brother! To hate the mighty Led Zeppelin just because you sister loved them... man... I hope she didn't love Jimi Hendrix! :p
 
That's pretty adversarial though, brother! To hate the mighty Led Zeppelin just because you sister loved them... man... I hope she didn't love Jimi Hendrix! :p
To be honest, I did not truly hate them, but acted like I did so as to irk the hell out of her! So yes, adversarial to the max!! She is passed away now due to bad life decisions (not that Led Zeppelin was one of them), so if you had known her, you would see she was not the type of individual anybody with a lick of sense would be in agreement with ;~))
 
I don't partake in the kind of judgementality that would have me disapproving of any kind of music other people may like. I have favorites but I will not hate and make demands I expect others to adhere to. More power to whoever makes music in any way they make it, whether or not I favoritize it. Keep in mind that music makers age and develop different inclinations in creativity that are not always in line with what you demand to hear. If you have a type of music in mind you want more of, make it yourself. And don't be bitter towards people having fame and/or fortune that you'd prefer to have for yourself as it's very hypocritical. ✌️
 
And don't be bitter towards people having fame and/or fortune that you'd prefer to have for yourself as it's very hypocritical.

Every thinking musician has judgements about bands, famous or not. To imply that one judges music to be bad out of jealousy is just implying that musical judgment doesn’t really have any validity. I reject that entirely.

Let me tell you, I judge the unknown bands for selling out too, and it’s not because I envy their obscurity!
 
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