Question about Intervals

[Boudoir Guitar]

You don’t know the modes of major, melodic and harmonic minor?

you forget. I play simple music.

Honestly, about all I think about when I play are minor pentatonic shapes and the colors I might want to add by filling in those boxes.

None of this has anything to do with the definition of interval vs scale degree or any other made up term like “diatonic third in Dorian”. If by the interval between the root and 3rd, that would be a minor third. Not a Dorian third.

 

[unix-guy]

Very often even. But I don't need to know any interval names for that at all.

So you harmonize in 3rds (for example) without knowing what 3rd intervals are?

I mean, people can and do such things without knowing intervals or even any theory, but in context of this thread that's not really relevant.

 

[Gothi]

If by the interval between the root and 3rd, that would be a minor third. Not a Dorian third.

True. Simply because there are 7 modes but only 2 types of thirds. So a "dorian" third is no difference from a phrygian or aeolian, but aren´t we nitpicking now? I listed the types of intervals before where only the fourth is ambiguous and needs a context to be defined. That is basic interval theory. If we move beyond that we will soon get into triads and eventually tetrads, and from this point we do consider a triad a triad and not two thirds, one above the other, even if a triad can be considered as such.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

True. Simply because there are 7 modes but only 2 types of thirds. So a "dorian" third is no difference from a phrygian or aeolian, but aren´t we nitpicking now? I listed the types of intervals before where only the fourth is ambiguous and needs a context to be defined. That is basic interval theory. If we move beyond that we will soon get into triads and eventually tetrads, and from this point we do consider a triad a triad and not two thirds, one above the other, even if a triad can be considered as such.

The point was that folks were using “interval” synonymously with “how many scale degrees apart”? Anything beyond that is fine, as long as folks are using the term “interval” when they mean “interval” and “scale degree” when they mean “scale degree”.

 

[Eagle]

What options are there for naming the interval between C and Eb in any possible context, mode or tonality?
In what context/mode or tonality is “minor 3rd” not the correct answer?

Is C the 1, are you playing Eb over C or are you playing C to Eb one then the other over nothing.
The function of each note is 100% relevant to how you decide to use it in any musical context.
The tritone in a 7th chord is functionally different to one starting on the one.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Is C the 1, are you playing Eb over C or are you playing C to Eb one then the other over nothing.
The function of each note is 100% relevant to how you decide to use it in any musical context.
The tritone in a 7th chord is functionally different to one starting on the one.

Doesn't matter. It's a minor 3rd. Period.

Played together, it's harmonic; Played separately, it's melodic. But it's still a minor third either way.

I have a Majesty guitar. Doesn't matter what color it is, it's still a Majesty.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Fwiw, I think visual memorization is fine - but having it on paper IMO isn't.
I think paper (or a screen for the matter) is useful to look at some basic structures, but where to go from there should be done just on the instrument.
For instance, it might be a good idea to lay out a typical major triad in root position on whatever visual medium. Like this (A major triad on D, G and B strings):

x
5
6
7
x
x

Now, this may need a little explanation of the included notes. Maybe like this:

x
5 - 5th
6 - major 3rd
7 - root
x
x

From there on, it's easy to go pretty much anywhere by yourself in case you know some theory and "musical mechanics". And it's really not much that you need. One basic thing might be something like "major 3rd for major chords, minor 3rd for minor chords". So, where's that major 3rd in the diagram above? Right, 6th fret, G string. How do we turn it into a minor 3rd? Right, by lowering it a semitone.
So, what will you end up with? It's this (and I'm only posting the diagram for demonstration purposes, as said above, this should happen in your head and on your fretboard only):

x
5
5
7
x
x

Now let's do all three close position major triad inversions on the same set of strings. Again, posting diagrams won't make you internalize it, so what we need is an explanation of inversions. Basically, for now, the rule is "move the lowest note up one octave". So to get from our root position A major triad A-C#-E to the first inversion, we'd have to play C#-E-A. Where do we find those notes in that very order on the D, G and B strings? And once we found them, what would we have to do to create another minor version? And what would the second inversion look like? 2nd inversion in minor?
And now - wohoo - what if we did all the same stuff for a D major triad? And then, what if we came up with a rule to move from any A major triad to any D major triad using the least possible movement (still using the same set of strings)?
Also: How does all this transfer to different sets of strings (this is where the guitar really gets very nasty as there's the dreaded B string only a major 3rd apart from the G string)?
And what if we now tried to harmonize an entire major scale just using those triads? And can you alread guess which notes to alter in a major triad to arrive at a diminished triad (because that's what we'd need to harmonize the 7th degree of a major scale)?

All of this should easily be doable given the very little graphic representations above. But you have to explore it yourself - which, IMO without any question, is *the* most efficient way to get it into your system, even if it hurts a little bit more when you start.

The very same concept also applies to thirds, sixths, other intervals, other chord types/shapes, scales and what not.
Doing it yourself instead of relying on a paper will a) make you find out and memorize, b) make you listen, not watch.




How exactly? Like stare at them and learn them? Seriously, this is such an overused term - and it's hardly ever backed up with any useful "how to"s. So, how?

I am basically learning everything you’re saying. What helps is playing chord progressions (like I IV V) on a set of three strings in all three combinations of triad shapes. It’s a slow process but it’s helping me learn notes, particularly finding the root, and changing from major to minor triads (being forced to identify the 3rd).

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Is C the 1, are you playing Eb over C or are you playing C to Eb one then the other over nothing.
The function of each note is 100% relevant to how you decide to use it in any musical context.
The tritone in a 7th chord is functionally different to one starting on the one.

It’s the beauty of music. How different a minor third interval can sound depending on the context in which it is played, while remaining a minor third interval in all of those contexts.

 

[maguchi]

OMG , LOL

 

[Eagle]

It’s the beauty of music. How different a minor third interval can sound depending on the context in which it is played, while remaining a minor third interval in all of those contexts.

This is like saying G major is the same as A Dorian and we have already accepted that in spite of common notes its function name and spelling is different. As I said above you are providing context to the third by declaring it minor and the third degree and therefore three semitones.
There are scales that contain a sharp 3 and others that contain a flat 4 the difference is important to understand and describe in order to understand the harmony created by the use of this note.
The name of the interval is always contextual but the size is in semitones / tones is not.
Every interval statement above is either of those.
Descriptions of intervals in isolation is often stated as its comparison to the major scale but only in isolation or if this is the musical situation you want to describe. Music theory is about conveying context to notes. Even a key signature conveys default context to the notes in it that in turn gives you the intervals.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

The name of the interval is always contextual

You're still not going to give us an actual example of this, are you.

 

[Eagle]

You're still not going to give us an actual example of this, are you.

Every example above is that unless it’s the number of semitones . To call it a minor third is to literally take two notes out of context isolating them and comparing them to the major scale in the key of the lowest. This is the opposite of “information “(that even the name of the two notes has already given you.)

 

[jay mitchell]

An interval is relative to a major scale

No. An interval is the musical relationship between two voices (notes). That's it. In ascending order: unison, minor second, major second, minor third, major third, perfect fourth, diminished (flatted) fifth, perfect fifth, minor (flatted) sixth, major sixth, minor (flatted) seventh, major seventh, octave, minor (flatted) ninth, major ninth, augmented (raised) ninth, major tenth (usually just tenth), eleventh, sharp (augmented) eleventh, twelfth (almost never named), minor (flatted) thirteenth, and major thirteenth. These relationships always apply and have no need of being referenced to any scale. The properties that distinguish scales and modes are the intervals between adjacent notes. The "standard" modes all have two half-step (minor second) intervals, with the remaining intervals being whole steps. Other modes have varying numbers of half step intervals, and some of the other intervals are raised seconds (minor thirds).

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

 

[Sascha Franck]

So you harmonize in 3rds (for example) without knowing what 3rd intervals are?

You can do that perfectly (I obviously know what 3rds are). All I'm saying is that it's *completely* irrelevant to have a name for them.

And yes, that is extremely relevant. Because it means you don't have to sit down, learn intervals and their names before you can actually use them. "A third can be 3 or 4 halfsteps" is all you possibly need to know (if at all) - and when harmonizing something in thirds, you don't need to know whether you're playing a major or minor third. Once you play C-E (key of C), anything else falls in place. You just move up, so the next group of notes will be D-F. No need to have any names for it, doesn't help with your playing at all.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I listed the types of intervals before where only the fourth is ambiguous and needs a context to be defined.

The fourth needs no context to be defined, either. And it's not ambiguous. Your previous explanation about it to possibly be a sus4 or an inverted 5th hasn't got anything to do with defining the interval, which will still be a fourth in either case.
If at all, you need context for the distinction between #2(9) and 3-, the #4(11) and b5 and the #5 and b6(13). For the fourth, in 99.99999999 % of all cases zero context is required, those 0.00000001% being the situations when you may stumble over a bb5 or #3+.
Still, in a well tempered system, 3cm are 3cm, no matter whether you calculate 1+2 or 7-4 to get there.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I am basically learning everything you’re saying. What helps is playing chord progressions (like I IV V) on a set of three strings in all three combinations of triad shapes. It’s a slow process but it’s helping me learn notes, particularly finding the root, and changing from major to minor triads (being forced to identify the 3rd).

Fwiw, I think I'll start a dedicated thread about triads one day (maybe even soon), simply because I think they're possibly the most efficient, explaining, "nice to explore" and "great to have" chord construction baseline models for guitar players.

 

[0XI0]

all I know is guitar strings are all a 4th apart except G and B string is a major 3rd, guitar is the only percussion instrument where you can play the exact same interval or note in 3 different places on the fretboard and get a completely different sound

 

[Sascha Franck]

The function of each note is 100% relevant to how you decide to use it in any musical context.

Of course. But intervals aren't describing a function. A function can be derived from using them. That's a huge difference.
The interval of a minor third doesn't describe a major chord when you measure the distance between G and E in a C major chord. It's still a minor third.
A minor third that you add to a root results in a minor chord. That's the derived function. Doesn't make an interval a functional thing in itself, though.

2cm are 2cm.

 

[Gothi]

The fourth needs no context to be defined.
If at all, you need context for the distinction between #2(9) and 3-, the #4(11) and b5 and the #5 and b6(13). For the fourth, in 99.99999999 % of all cases zero context is required, those 0.00000001% being the situations when you may stumble over a bb5 or #3+.

I just explained above why it meeds context being a fourth. It is a question of the lower note being the tonic or fifth in a harmonical context. Counterpoint again, which you already have show elsewhere you know nothing about. Read J.J Fux. Either you are trolling me or suffer from a serious Dunning Kruger Syndrome. In the “This is excellent” thread you claimed I did not use counterpoint because it did not “sound like that” in your ears, which is bizarre since even a rock song that uses plain polyphony, e.g. a bass figure interacting with a guitar lead or vocal, including harmonizations (= first species counterpoint), can be analysed in terms of species. If you want to “correct” me further, you gotta stick to the historiical terms and facts and not make up your own.