Question about Intervals

[Eagle]

No. An interval is the musical relationship between two voices (notes). That's it. In ascending order: unison, minor second, major second, minor third, major third, perfect fourth, diminished (flatted) fifth, perfect fifth, minor (flatted) sixth, major sixth, minor (flatted) seventh, major seventh, octave, minor (flatted) ninth, major ninth, augmented (raised) ninth, major tenth (usually just tenth), eleventh, sharp eleventh, twelfth (almost never named), minor thirteenth, and major thirteenth. These relationships always apply and have no need of being referenced to any scale. The properties that distinguish scales and modes are the intervals between adjacent notes. The "standard" modes all have two half-step (minor second) intervals, with the remaining intervals being whole steps. Other modes have varying numbers of half step intervals, and some of the other intervals are raised seconds (minor thirds).

And that is the functions of the major scale.
In a different context these names are functionally incorrect at best and misleading which is why they are only used to describe an abstract interval by reference to the major scale.

 

[Eagle]

all I know is guitar strings are all a 4th apart except G and B string is a major 3rd, guitar is the only percussion instrument where you can play the exact same interval or note in 3 different places on the fretboard and get a completely different sound

Which is why equidistant sounds are described by the function or even the number of octaves from middle C in standard music notation and the key signature conveys default offsets.
The thing that everyone is missing is the distance between notes in context is the function of both relative to one in the chord and out of context relative to the major scale with the lowest as the one.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I just explained above why it meeds context being a fourth.

No you didn't and no it doesn't. It's utter nonsense. An interval describes a distance, regardless of context.

 

[Gothi]

^^^ Seen in isolation there is no reason to call a minor 9th a flattened 9th unless vi know the mode. Phrygian’s and Locrian’s 9th is minor already, so if these are the modes, the 9th is not flattened in any meanngful sense, so many of the prefixes Eagle refers too in Jay’s post only make sense in a modal context. However, it does not need to be major only they relate too unless you consider the other modes inversions of major. Though they can in a modern context, modes were originally seen as closed systems and not inversion of each other. That came later.

 

[Eagle]

^^^ Seen in isolation there is no reason to call a minor 9th a flattened 9th unless vi know the mode. Phrygian’s and Locrian’s 9th is flattened already, so if these are the modes, the 9th is not flattened in any meanngful sense, so many of the prefixes Eagle refers too in Jay’s post only make sense in a modal context. However, it does not need to be major only they relate too unless you consider the other modes inversions of major. Though they can in a modern context, modes were originally seen as closed systems and not inversion of each other. That came later.

I Just listed prefixes because they are in fact major scale context and likely irrelevant to a piece of music that you have picked an interval out of.

 

[Gothi]

No you didn't and no it doesn't. It's nonsense.

Ah. A one liner again with no argument and contra-factual. Troll or just deluded make no difference to me. You are going to my ignore list. I just have to find out how to on this forum. Have a nice life, mate.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

So we all agree that “interval” just refers to the distance between any two notes. That it can be measured in semitones. And all but one person agrees that the naming convention given on the Wikipedia entry for “interval (music)” are correct. Those are also the names given elsewhere (see below). We all agree that in the context of a pice of music, especially multi-part music, the relationship amongst all the notes of that music becomes pretty complex, and that two notes the same distance apart can sound different functionally depending on the context of the other notes surrounding those two (either in that particular moment, or in the moments just before). And one person disagrees with the naming convention, alleging that the names of the intervals change depending on the context, but has yet to give a single example of when a major second is called something other than a major second or a whole step.

musictheory.net

www.musictheory.net

Introduction to Intervals

 

[Eagle]

The clue is in the title “made easy”
All diatonic harmony is using intervals expressed by their own context .
What is the point of removing the context and then applying major scale concepts on something that is already telling you exactly what the two notes are on your instrument and by definition the distance between.
Harmonising a triad doesn’t keep stopping and comparing it to the major scale when you have learned even basic music theory . 135 246 357 etc not 135 135 135 . That is almost as useless as modal harmony on a bass line.

 

[Gothi]

alleging that the names of the intervals change depending on the context, but has yet to give a single example of when a major second is called something other than a major second or a whole step.

I am not sure I get the controversy. It should be simple if the intervals are related to modes. E.g. If I am in phrygian it has a minor 9th. Raising the 9th temporarly, we are in aeolian and thus into some modal exchange between phrygian and aeolian. Thus we are working with a raised 9th in phrygian. However, if we stay in eaolian, we have simply made a mode change, and now the 9th is not to be considered raised because aeolian has a major 9th by default.

Locrian is more tricky since it has a diminished fifth by default. A tritonus from tonic. Calling it a flattened fith is deffo misleading because there is no fifth in locrian to flatten, though I would call it that in lack of better terms, But it is tricky as said. To know that the fifth degree in lociran is not a perfect fifth, you have to know the mode at first.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

And this isn’t argument for argument sake.

If I ask you to play the note 8 semitones up from E, how quickly could you do that?

If I asked you to play the minor 6th above E, how quickly could you do that? I’m guessing a lot quicker. I know I can do it a lot quicker.

If someone asks for a one sentence explanation of the Dorian mode: “it’s the minor scale but with a major 6th instead of a minor 6th” immediately coneys the intervals relationships. If I said “it has a Dorian 6th” “what’s that?” “Oh, it’s just a major 6th, but we call it Dorian 6th because we are in Dorian” “The 6th degree is 9 semitones from the root instead of 8” would get “oh, so it’s a major 6th?”

There are benefits to simple, agreed upon, consistent nomenclature.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

The clue is in the title “made easy”
All diatonic harmony is using intervals expressed by their own context .
What is the point of removing the context and then applying major scale concepts on something that is already telling you exactly what the two notes are on your instrument and by definition the distance between.
Harmonising a triad doesn’t keep stopping and comparing it to the major scale when you have learned even basic music theory . 135 246 357 etc not 135 135 135 . That is almost as useless as modal harmony on a bass line.

Because at some point you didn’t have that contextual information. And you learned that contextual information by using a simple consistent measuring stick.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I am not sure I get the controversy. It should be simple if the intervals are related to modes. E.g. If I am in phrygian it has a minor 9th. Raising the 9th temporarly, we are in aeolian and thus into some modal exchange between phrygian and aeolian. Thus we are working with a raised 9th in phrygian. However, if we stay in eaolian, we have simply made a mode change, and now the 9th is not to be considered raised because aeolian has a major 9th by default.

Yeah. It is absolutely this simple. When you say the degree of the aeolian mode, you just say the 9th. When you are asked what the interval is, you don’t call it the “aeolian 9th”, you call it what it is - a minor 9th.

 

[Gothi]

Yeah. It is absolutely this simple. When you say the degree of the aeolian mode, you just say the 9th. When you are asked what the interval is, you don’t call it the “aeolian 9th”, you call it what it is - a minor 9th.

A major 9th if aeolian, but otherwise we seem tuned to the same channel.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

A major 9th if aeolian, but otherwise we seem tuned to the same channel.

Right. My bad.

 

[Eagle]

Yeah. It is absolutely this simple. When you say the degree of the aeolian mode, you just say the 9th. When you are asked what the interval is, you don’t call it the “aeolian 9th”, you call it what it is - a minor 9th.

Seeing as an Aeolian mode is the natural minor scale you are providing the context and the same name.
Anyone improvising who is actually using the functions to inform their note choice will not be comparing everything to an interval in the major scale from the one. This is a simplification for beginners who don’t understand the concept ( by comparing it to the first thing they learned) that has no use in actual playing or composition.

 

[Gothi]

English is my second language but are you gentlemen sure you don’t agree more than disagree? I get the impression that both of you know the core of it and may be discussing some minor semantic issues. It is a little like discussing chord symbols, some will remain open and ambigious to name, causing semantic clashes, but most know how to play them.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Ah. A one liner again with no argument and contra-factual. Troll or just deluded make no difference to me. You are going to my ignore list. I just have to find out how to on this forum. Have a nice life, mate.

Do what you please. Your explanation remains to be utter nonsense.
The interval between, say, a D2 and a G2 remains a (perfect) fourth, regardless of the context. It doesn't matter whether either is the root or any other chord degree in a musical context, the absolute interval remains to be a perfect fourth.
Saying anything else will only prove one thing, namely thar you have no clue of what you're talking about.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And all but one person agrees that the naming convention given on the Wikipedia entry for “interval (music)” are correct.

Well, as it seems, it's at least two persons. Somewhat like the flat earthers of music theory maybe.

It should be simple if the intervals are related to modes.

But that's not what this thread is about. Which also renders your explanation of the fourth interval completely irrelevant. I am aware that a fourth on top of a major chord's root will either cause a dissonance (when played simultaneously with the major 3rd) or typically "ask" for resolution (when used in a sus4 chord). I am as well aware that a fourth between the fifth of a chord and its root is not causing these issues. Music theory 101 - and thank you very much for calling me a troll but I actually studied that stuff at a music university.
Whatever, none of these apply outiside of a musical context. A perfect fourth is a perfect fourth. And it's always called that. Heck it even remains a perfect fourth outside of an equal tempered environment.

 

[Eagle]

English is my second language but are you gentlemen sure you don’t agree more than disagree? I get the impression that both of you know the core of it and may be discussing some minor semantic issues. It is a little like discussing chord symbols, some will remain open and ambigious to name, causing semantic clashes, but most know how to play them.

I think you’re right.

 

[Mikael Dez]

Fwiw, I think I'll start a dedicated thread about triads one day (maybe even soon), simply because I think they're possibly the most efficient, explaining, "nice to explore" and "great to have" chord construction baseline models for guitar players.

I just started lessons and as soon as my teacher saw that I didn’t know the note names, he started with triads!