Question about Intervals

[Sascha Franck]

And this is relative to the major scale which is the reference in all music theory.

No. As @Boudoir Guitar said, intervals have pretty much no relation to major scales.

 

[Sascha Franck]

But fwiw, intervals IMO can be learned a lot easier when you relate them to heptatonic scales - ideally and obviously the good old major scale.
Scale tones represent 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, j7 (unfortunately the only interval requiring some indexing) and 8.
Once you know a scale goes like C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C and can reliably figure out the distances between any neighbour notes, everything else falls into place pretty much instantly. As in "ok, there's another note between C and D, so D must be the major second, Db will hence be the minor second".

Another important thing (that many, many folks aren't aware of, even some experienced dudes and dudettes) that is sort of given away by that: Apart from some kind of exceptions (which I won't cover right here), in a heptatonic (fwiw, heptatonic = scales using 7 notes) context, each and every "base" note name is always only used once. There's no context with Gb and G. Or Gb and G# (and yes, I hear you already, "what about the altered scale"- see my comment about exceptions - and the altered scale doesn't fit into any common concept anyway).
This is important to know as it also applies to intervals. If you have a perfect fifth, there's gonna be no b5 or #5 in addition (remember: in a heptatonic scale that is), so the tones a halftone below or above the perfect fifth would be #4 (or #11 in a chord symbol) and b6 (or b13).
And yes, describing things enharmonically correct is something anyone benefits from.

 

[Eagle]

if I play a D and the F above it, I am playing a minor 3rd interval.

It could part of the C major scale. It could be part of the F major scale. It could be part of a D major blues. Or I could just playing some janky outside something or other. But in every instance, regardless of the key, scale, mode, whatever, the interval I just played is called a minor 3rd or a flat 3rd or a diminished 3rd, and those two notes are still 1.5 steps apart. In that regard, the only scale intervals have a relation to is the chromatic scale.

The naming convention might have some relation to the major or minor scale, but the intervals themselves do not.

It’s a Dorion 3rd .
All comparison is to the major scale .

 

[TSJMajesty]

An interval is relative to a major scale first,

No it isn't.

A scale degree is.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Good old modes / symantics of music discussion!

The interesting part is that different players have different ways of looking at the world, and how they relate things to oneanother. Different cuts through the same apple give different views on the same thing.

My brain:
I hear melodies either:
- A as degrees of the root scale, and translate them mentally as numbers
- B relative to the harmony, again as numbers relative to the chord.

Sorta 2 listing modes.

I can hear the numbers fast, if you ask me for the actual interval between 2 notes, id need some time, definitly not fast enough for improv.

I sometimes navigate on scales…where sounds are numbers relative to the root.

I mostly navigate on the harmony. I know the function of the chord within the 7 “active notes” in the tonal landscape, I see the chord notes, and the notes surrounding them in that landscape…which all together construct a scale.
For me …while the above is not the quickest way to get early results…nevertheless the most efficiënt in the long run. Probably cause you take things for what they are…harmony living in a world of 7 notes. No shapes to remember, no building scale A based on changing scale type B, no having to think G major when you are actually living in a A dorian world. To me that’s an unnessecary detour. While others might argue..learning A Dorian with G major already under your fingers is the detour. In my mind…yes, it takes time and effort to look at the same set of notes from a different perspective…but it pays off….cause those same notes behave different in different contexts.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

It’s a Dorion 3rd .
All comparison is to the major scale .

That’s the most arbitrary thing I’ve ever heard. What are we to call the distance between C# and D# above it?

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

That’s the most arbitrary thing I’ve ever heard. What are we to call the distance between C# and D# above it?

2 frets

 

[Eagle]

That’s the most arbitrary thing I’ve ever heard. What are we to call the distance between C# and D# above it?

It depends on context for the name beyond describing it as a tone.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

It depends on context for the name beyond describing it as a tone.

 

[TSJMajesty]

Yeah, a Major 2nd.

 

[Eagle]

All names in music are about context apart from the major scale.
Example;
Cowboy C has a G in the bass, does that make the G the 1? No because that’s not the context of its function. It’s a drop 5 inversion of C not a chord built from G.

 

[Eagle]

Yeah, a Major 2nd.

And there is context (major).

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

And there is context (major).

is there a context where “major second” what not be the appropriate name?

 

[Sascha Franck]

And there is context (major).

No. A major second is a major second is a major second. Completely without context. 3.6cm are 3.6cm. Without any context.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

And there is context (major).

And what do we call the interval between the 3rd and 4th degree of a minor scale…also a major 2nd right?
I can’t think of any conotation for an interval where the context dictates it.

Where context maybe relevant is choice between b5/#11…or #9/b10

 

[Sascha Franck]

#9/b10

Oh - we should get into the marvels of b10s and (possibly even more so) b11s. And how one of the most common explanations for the altered scale (or chord) is just not working (as in Galt being the 7th degree of Ab melmin). That discussion always provides some serious fun.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Oh - we should get into the marvels of b10s and (possibly even more so) b11s. And how one of the most common explanations for the altered scale (or chord) is just not working (as in Galt being the 7th degree of Ab melmin). That discussion always provides some serious fun.

Been there on long drives to a gig
Not sure in which camp I was…
Thinking of it now…in Fm melodic..The 7th degree is E,G,Bb,D.
If you introduce F and G#…that’s the b9 and the bb11

We need to rewrite everything …it’s E7b9bb11!!!

 

[Eagle]

And what do we call the interval between the 3rd and 4th degree of a minor scale…also a major 2nd right?
I can’t think of any conotation for an interval where the context dictates it.

Where context maybe relevant is choice between b5/#11…or #9/b10

100% down to what you are playing it over.
Other than that a tone.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Thinking of it now…in Fm melodic..The 7th degree is E,G,Bb,D.
If you introduce F and G#…that’s the b9 and the bb11

Fm melodic minor is F, G, Ab, Bb, C, D, E, F.
If we look at that from the E and do the typical stacking of thirds to build a chord, we'll end up with:
E, G, Bb, D, F, Ab, C.
That'd be an Em7/b5/b9/b11/b13.
Just that our ears/brains don't allow a b11 to exist and always interprete it as a major 3rds. Which brings us into trouble, as all of a sudden we have two 2nds/9ths between root and third - while we'll be losing either the 11th, 5th or 13th at the same time. Which is why I rather prefer to look at the altered chord as a dom7 chord with b9/#9 and b5/#5, nothing else.
Interestingly enough, when we look at the tritone substitute for an E7alt, namely Bb7/9/#11/13, the third stacking method works absolutely fine.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

100% down to what you are playing it over.
Other than that a tone.

More context may allow you to say more about the interval...but the interval is still the interval.

The names are there because major 7th is a whole lot less of a mouthful than "Five whole steps and a half step". My name is Boudoir Guitar because I do most of my guitar playing in the sexy bedroom. But my name is still Boudoir Guitar, and I am still Boudoir Guitar, even when I am playing outside the bedroom.