Question about Intervals

[Eagle]

It’s really only a discussion about naming conventions. If you’re a beginner ( to theory) it’s useful have an abstract interval name from the major scale as reference but when you’re using it and properly immersed the space between two notes will be obvious and known just by the name of the notes. If you’re talking about an interval in a piece of music you describe it by its function and if you need to describe the distance between two abstract notes then the major scale is the descriptor. It’s really that simple. Nobody is saying an interval doesn’t exist in isolation but classical music theory doesn’t need to assume major scale functions if you already know what notes don’t have a sharp. It’s literally useless information that in context is often unhelpful because it is out of context and already in the notation or known. The only technically correct way to describe it is in semitones/tone because this doesn’t apply major scale functions and keeps it abstract and separate from such.

 

[jay mitchell]

If you’re a beginner ( to theory) it’s useful have an abstract interval name from the major scale

Fixed it. Intervals and their names don't come from scales; it's exactly the opposite.

 

[Eagle]

In the long term, that's an ineffective and inefficient way to understand modes or the fretboard. It will require that you make frequent, unnecessary position changes. I learned those fingerings ca. 1973 and used them for a time in the way you describe. A few years later it dawned on me - during a lesson I took with Bill Moio - how much that approach had limited my playing. I suggest you work on Bill Leavitt's fingerings in Book Three of his Method for Modern Guitar. Once you begin to get those together, you'll gradually develop the ability to play in any key/scale/mode in whatever position you find yourself at any given moment.


While it's generally a good thing to be aware of 3nps fingerings, that is only of significant value when you're playing sequential scales/modes using alternate picking. If you practice playing scales, your improvisation will tend to sound like you're practicing scales. Just sayin'....

No it just means you have a full knowledge of all the notes and the ability to use them. Hence the interval scale practice .

 

[Eagle]

Fixed it. Intervals and their names don't come from scales; it's exactly the opposite.

So what are they when that are literally that.

 

[jay mitchell]

So what are they when that are literally that.

Scales come from intervals. Intervals originated with the overtone series.

 

[PLX]

the overtone series

My favorite line of Dumble™ amps.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Tom Quayle perspective on getting comfortable finding all the generic intervals on the fretboard vs. learning different shapes for every scale. I'm sure he's no Eagle, but he does seem to have advanced past the beginner state.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I suggest you work on Bill Leavitt's fingerings in Book Three of his Method for Modern Guitar.

Sorry, but those books are kinda outdated regarding their scale presentation.

 

[jay mitchell]

Sorry, but those books are kinda outdated regarding their scale presentation.

In what way exactly? The fingerings I referenced are targeted primarily at facilitating sight reading, and they're certainly not the only ones I use (nor were they when I was first exposed to them). They will facilitate positional independence. I've never seen evidence that legitimate musical concepts ever become outdated. Pedagogical methods, yes. Presentation graphics, yes (Ted Greene, anyone?). Concepts/fingerings, no. If they were useful then, they remain so to this day.

 

[jay mitchell]

Tom Quayle perspective on getting comfortable finding all the generic intervals on the fretboard vs. learning different shapes for every scale. I'm sure he's no Eagle, but he does seem to have advanced past the beginner state.

That information can be condensed to knowing chord tones and where to find them on the fretboard. It's a lot easier said than done, but it's a good way to begin learning to improvise. Here's another video in which Hal Galper elaborates on the concept:

 

[duzie]

Wow this went off the rails
I’m like

Lost

 

[JasonE]

I just want to point out that there are some people, well me, reading all of this and it is generating good thoughts. I think part of what is driving this conversation is living in different parts of the world. I have found the conversation thought provoking from my own knowledge of theory and playing. I can see some of what was mentioned earlier that I think people in this thread are agreeing more than they think but are explaining things from a different angle. That is one cool but also difficult thing about music is that there are a lot of different ways to come at something. My experience is that people have to find an angle that makes sense to them. Then once the knowledge builds the other angels start to make more sense.

I am happy to see that the conversation has been civil for the most part. I certainly wouldn't put anyone on ignore for the conversation here. I think it has been a healthy debate for the most part. Explain your position and let the conversation flow. I can't be the only one reading this and following along and filtering it into my own understanding of theory. I didn't start this conversation but have been appreciative of it. I am looking forward to the triad conversation. I honestly like having and reading these types of discussion. It keeps things fresh in my mind.

 

[Frodebro]

I just want to point out that there are some people, well me, reading all of this and it is generating good thoughts. I think part of what is driving this conversation is living in different parts of the world. I have found the conversation thought provoking from my own knowledge of theory and playing. I can see some of what was mentioned earlier that I think people in this thread are agreeing more than they think but are explaining things from a different angle. That is one cool but also difficult thing about music is that there are a lot of different ways to come at something. My experience is that people have to find an angle that makes sense to them. Then once the knowledge builds the other angels start to make more sense.

I am happy to see that the conversation has been civil for the most part. I certainly wouldn't put anyone on ignore for the conversation here. I think it has been a healthy debate for the most part. Explain your position and let the conversation flow. I can't be the only one reading this and following along and filtering it into my own understanding of theory. I didn't start this conversation but have been appreciative of it. I am looking forward to the triad conversation. I honestly like having and reading these types of discussion. It keeps things fresh in my mind.

Outstanding! Most of us just saw Eagle and Jay circling the ring and went to make popcorn…

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

That information can be condensed to knowing chord tones and where to find them on the fretboard. It's a lot easier said than done, but it's a good way to begin learning to improvise. Here's another video in which Hal Galper elaborates on the concept:

For me, the only person I can speak for, it’s helpful for more than just chord tones. If I’m improvising over a one chord vamp (for shame) I’m gonna get bored really quickly if I’m just locking into seven notes and never throwing in anything else. But if I were to have to think about “okay, switch from Dorian to the blues scale”…well, that’s not improvising. That’s building legos according to the instructions. And is mechanical, and cumbersome and quite honestly hard for me to do.

Instead, I’ve drilled the sound of the different interval shapes on the fretboard into my head such that I can find what I’m hearing in my head without having to worry about the context.

That came from loading up an app on my phone and getting to where I could accurately identify the properly named intervals generically, out of context. And by then finding those on the fretboard and learning the sound generically out of context and then experimenting with them in different contexts so that I started hearing melody lines using those intervals in lots of different contexts.

 

[Sascha Franck]

In what way exactly?

For example, Leavitt is stressing "one scale, all positions" and "all scales, one position" a whole lot.
Nobody's playing that way at all. Gmaj in 6th position is really making little to no sense.
And otoh, there's no 3nps scales, no "comfort zone" playing and what not.

Fwiw, I absolutely agree it's sometimes worth going for a little drill outside of what comes naturally, but Leavitt is taking it too far.

 

[Mikael Dez]

I just want to say, my daughter is doing her math homework right now and this thread has less tension lmao

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

That information can be condensed to knowing chord tones and where to find them on the fretboard. It's a lot easier said than done,

100%
All the theory you need can be written on a 2 pager, and can be understood in a week.
It’s the application that takes a shitload of work…and it will not be finished before you leave this planet.
Application as in, apply theoretical concepts, to learn to navigate, but also to build your ear, and eventually it becomes a bridge between ear and fingers.

I probably learned the most of applying concepts on chord notes, on a tune, in time, with a fixed metric (8ths or 16ths), in every position I could think of. The fixed application of a concept takes away any wiggle room to cheat, which reveals any black boxes in your knowledge in the first bar…at first it’s really demanding mentally.

Example:
concept: play chord note, chromatic beneath it, chord note —- move up to the next chord note and apply the same concept. (Or down on the way back)
Start on the low E, in one position, and work your way up, then reverse.
Do so on a tune, in time, aligned with the chords, play 8th notes only, no rests.
If you can do it in a position…move to a new position you are LEAST comfortable with.
The “on a tune part” makes it different, cause you are not practicing finding chord notes of one chord, which results in memorizing shapes, but you are forced to reinvent at every chord change.

Overtime, chord notes of a tune “light up” all over the neck, and if you practiced various concepts, you will have vocabulary to handle them.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Gmaj in 6th position is really making little to no sense.

He’s teaching G maj in 5th, 6th and 7th position?

 

[Sascha Franck]

He’s teaching G maj in 5th, 6th and 7th position?

Yes. No joke.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Yes. No joke.

Spicy
On the other hand…it takes “shapes” off the table…and if you can’t do that…you maybe don’t really see G major on the neck.
If you got 5 and 7…maybe not bad to spend half an hour on 6, just for the brain, it’s not a practical position obviously.