NDSP Quad Cortex

[mbenigni]

I think that ship has already sailed. Not in their ability to aggressively produce native content moving forward, (Soon) but to have already aggressively produced and built a library of native content that people wouldn’t feel desirous to supplement now.

I mean, they will for sure release more plugin content than native content in the next year. And that’s not even a Nefarious Neural statement. They just have way more backlogged plugin content produced and in the queue. So even if they are aggressive and dropped a couple new amps or effects in the fall, I don’t think that alone will make QC owners any less interested in using the plugs to supplement additional content now.

IMO

I’m not Neuraldamas but I would guess by this time next year the average QC owner will have purchased 2-4 additional plugins, with actual plugin use being an afterthought at purchase.

I agree.

Neuraldamas.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I’m not Neuraldamas but I would guess by this time next year the average QC owner will have purchased 2-4 additional plugins, with actual plugin use being an afterthought.

Are existing QC users buying more plugins going to generate more money for NDSP than bringing in new customers who are buying an entire QC? I think they'll add enough free stuff purely because they can shift more HW units by improving it. If they were fully going for the DLC route, they'd sell the HW at a ridiculously low price and make up the cost with DLC.

With NDSP, they'd probably rather sell a single QC and no DLC than 5x plugins. A bit like how Apple can price their software absurdly low, the HW is balancing the books for them and the cheap software helps sell the HW. Its likely more beneficial to load up the QC with free content to keep sales for that up, than just paywall everything. Realistically, users will probably buy a ton of the plugins anyway because gutiarists gon do stuff guitarists do.

I'm sure Line 6 and IK somewhat get away with their LOW AF pricing by either subsiding margins of some units with the margins of others in the product range, or in IK's situation by selling you the same products over and over again (with DLC being part of that).

 

[norminal]

but you could argue without the ability to sync presets between the two they aren’t compatible in the purest sense of the word.

Laughs in HX Native.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Laughs in HX Native.

Tbf, for a fair comparison, you'd need to compare a QC Native to QC. If/when they do QC native, there's no way it wouldnt handle presets like Line 6 currently does.

The like for like comparison here would be making a preset in a Metallurgy suite and opening it in HX Native/Edit, which you can't do. And with that comparison, Metallurgy involves buying a plugin for gear you already have. With NDSP, you are getting something added to the HW as well as plugin support. IMO Line 6 get a bit of a free pass with Metallurgy being neglected/below its potential.

 

[yeky83]

I personally think he's off base with a lot of these observations. There's no way NDSP could have translated the skeuomorphic GUI elements of the plugin suites to QC without completely fragmenting the existing QC workflow, content, and feature set. It would have been one (subjective) step forward in terms of aesthetics, and a thousand steps back in terms of functionality.

I agree there's no way the plugin GUI gets translated to the QC... But the whole selling point of the NDSP plugins is that they're pretty with brand/artist brandings. And I'm not downplaying pretty, it's huge to the user experience. It's why their plugins sell well when most other major guitar plugins beat NDSP plugins by a large margin in features. So when you get rid of the fact that they're pretty, NDSP plugins as blocks especially when there's blocks that pretty much already do much the same things... meh. I totally get where JNC's coming from.

 

[Mongillo19]

So when you get rid of the fact that they're pretty, NDSP plugins as blocks especially when there's blocks that pretty much already do much the same things... meh

I'm 99 percent sure they've mentioned they are going to be blocks from the start. Also, I'm not sure why people thought they'd completely overhaul the GUI of the QC when everything else is blocked based.

I also think it's a tad unfair to say NDSP plugins being "pretty" is what sets them apart. People seem to love them for their presets, ease of use (which the QC is still very easy to use), and overall sound

 

[yeky83]

I'm 99 percent sure they've mentioned they are going to be blocks from the start. Also, I'm not sure why people thought they'd completely overhaul the GUI of the QC when everything else is blocked based.

Yeah, I've known. I told you about it last year when you wondered how it will be implemented: https://thegearforum.com/threads/rant-ndsp-qc-firmware-thread.820/page-78#post-40238

I also think it's a tad unfair to say NDSP plugins being "pretty" is what sets them apart. People seem to love them for their presets, ease of use (which the QC is still very easy to use), and overall sound

Nah, not unfair at all. "Love them for their presets, ease of use..." that's what I said, pretty with brands/artists attached.
Sound, subjective so can't really argue, except to say you can get as good a sound with any major guitar plugin.

 

[Mongillo19]

Nah, not unfair at all. "Love them for their presets, ease of use..." that's what I said, pretty with brands/artists attached.

Honestly when you said "pretty" I thought you meant the GUI was nice

 

[yeky83]

Honestly when you said "pretty" I thought you meant the GUI was nice

The GUI is nice. The nice GUI makes it easy to use. If it didn't look pretty, having a few pedals or an amp head fill up your screen is dumb and not conducive to ease of use. The whole thing works cus it's pretty.

 

[Whizzinby]

Are existing QC users buying more plugins going to generate more money for NDSP than bringing in new customers who are buying an entire QC?

I don’t think it’s either/or. It is very possible they could generate similar levels of profit from a user after he buys his 5th plugin as they did with the initial QC sale. (After factoring in production and distribution costs etc)

I think they'll add enough free stuff purely because they can shift more HW units by improving it.

The #1 improvement they’ve made in the last year is plugin compatibility

 

[mbenigni]

Are existing QC users buying more plugins going to generate more money for NDSP than bringing in new customers who are buying an entire QC? I think they'll add enough free stuff purely because they can shift more HW units by improving it. If they were fully going for the DLC route, they'd sell the HW at a ridiculously low price and make up the cost with DLC.

With NDSP, they'd probably rather sell a single QC and no DLC than 5x plugins. A bit like how Apple can price their software absurdly low, the HW is balancing the books for them and the cheap software helps sell the HW. Its likely more beneficial to load up the QC with free content to keep sales for that up, than just paywall everything. Realistically, users will probably buy a ton of the plugins anyway because gutiarists gon do stuff guitarists do.

I'm sure Line 6 and IK somewhat get away with their LOW AF pricing by either subsiding margins of some units with the margins of others in the product range, or in IK's situation by selling you the same products over and over again (with DLC being part of that).

This all makes good sense. The only concern is that NDSP is selling QCs like hotcakes with what many consider a lean collection of amps and effects. They're kind of enjoying the best of both worlds in terms of selling hardware at a premium, doing less development work than one might hope, and selling a wide selection of costly plugins all at the same time. This disincentives a business plan like Apple's.

 

[the swede]

I think I may be the only person ever that actually imagined that the plug-in UI would somehow be perfectly ported over to the QC (this was ages ago… but yeah… I imagined it… and also imagined I would buy a QC for that very reason)
That’s how stupid I am. But it was a cool dream though….

 

[mbenigni]

I agree there's no way the plugin GUI gets translated to the QC...

So when you get rid of the fact that they're pretty, NDSP plugins as blocks especially when there's blocks that pretty much already do much the same things... meh.

I totally get where JNC's coming from.

I don't really know how to reconcile these observations. To me, it all boils down to: what exactly was JNC expecting or hoping for? A full-screen recreation of each plugin? How would you manage mixing/matching and routing in that scenario? Thematically matched parameter pop-ups on the QC screen? White space, color selections, etc. would likely detract from usability on a screen this size.

NDSP needs to get the preset thing resolved. It's going to be a round peg/ square hole scenario, and these are usually solved by compromising for least-common denominator. IMO support of multiple plugin suites on one monolithic MFX device was a "be careful what you wish for" proposition from the word go. It would have been an entirely different proposition if there were a single QC plugin suite inclusive of everything on QC, a la Helix Native. In absence of that, early adopters would have been better served by demanding more discrete native blocks be added to the QC, and encouraging NDSP to drop pursuit of plugin "compatibility" altogether. But that's all water under the bridge now.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

This all makes good sense. The only concern is that NDSP is selling QCs like hotcakes with what many consider a lean collection of amps and effects. They're kind of enjoying the best of both worlds in terms of selling hardware at a premium, doing less development work than one might hope, and selling a wide selection of costly plugins all at the same time. This disincentives a business plan like Apple's.

I still can’t really see it turning into a situation where you have to pay just to unlock features - the plugins ARE separate products and firstly exist entirely outside of the QC, so I don’t think charging for them is a problem. Line 6 charges for Helix Native and Metallurgy, and their other plugins, on top of what the cost of the modeller was. I find it quite hard to say one is drastically different from the other if you want a HW modeller, and software.

As it stands, it’s their first HW device, and they only have one product available in the line. Line 6 can afford to take gambles and risks with newer smaller products that use fragments of the flagship model. I think especially with how the launch has gone, they’re on a bit of a PR campaign to tread carefully and spin things positively. Doubt they’ll penny pinch until there’s QC mini, QC ultra, QC micro, QC mandingo etc. Compare QC as a product to how ToneX works - both ToneX pedals cost WAY less than the competition, but have built in storefronts in the software to buy additional content to expand them. IK have that with T Racks and Amplitube already, and it’s factored into these products from the get go.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

In absence of that, early adopters would have been better served by demanding more discrete native blocks be added to the QC, and encouraging NDSP to drop pursuit of plugin "compatibility" altogether. But that's all water under the bridge now.

this x100000

 

[mbenigni]

I still can’t really see it turning into a situation where you have to pay just to unlock features - the plugins ARE separate products and firstly exist entirely outside of the QC, so I don’t think charging for them is a problem. Line 6 charges for Helix Native and Metallurgy, and their other plugins, on top of what the cost of the modeller was. I find it quite hard to say one is drastically different from the other if you want a HW modeller, and software.

As it stands, it’s their first HW device, and they only have one product available in the line. Line 6 can afford to take gambles and risks with newer smaller products that use fragments of the flagship model. I think especially with how the launch has gone, they’re on a bit of a PR campaign to tread carefully and spin things positively. Doubt they’ll penny pinch until there’s QC mini, QC ultra, QC micro, QC mandingo etc. Compare QC as a product to how ToneX works - both ToneX pedals cost WAY less than the competition, but have built in storefronts in the software to buy additional content to expand them. IK have that with T Racks and Amplitube already, and it’s factored into these products from the get go.

Well, I certainly hope you're right. But the bottom line is that NDSP doesn't have any pressing incentive to expand the content in CorOS. The product is already doing fine. Hopefully, they'll add content as matter of good faith, but we're still left hanging with their generous interpretation of "SOON".

As for Line 6 charging for plugins... Helix Native costs a pittance if you're a Helix owner. (I don't exactly recall, but I'm not sure I paid for it at all.)

 

[MirrorProfiles]

As for Line 6 charging for plugins... Helix Native costs a pittance if you're a Helix owner. (I don't exactly recall, but I'm not sure I paid for it at all.)

I’m sure QC Native would fall dead in line with what Line 6 charge for Helix Narive. Factor in that much of the DSP is done already, WAY less work to do on graphics, no official endorsements or licencing. Metallurgy’s prices are in line with NDSP suites which are more like for like. Overall, everything is fucking cheap as chips and we’re spoiled with what’s available for next to nothing.

 

[GTR37]

I don't really know how to reconcile these observations. To me, it all boils down to: what exactly was JNC expecting or hoping for? A full-screen recreation of each plugin? How would you manage mixing/matching and routing in that scenario? Thematically matched parameter pop-ups on the QC screen? White space, color selections, etc. would likely detract from usability on a screen this size.

NDSP needs to get the preset thing resolved. It's going to be a round peg/ square hole scenario, and these are usually solved by compromising for least-common denominator. IMO support of multiple plugin suites on one monolithic MFX device was a "be careful what you wish for" proposition from the word go. It would have been an entirely different proposition if there were a single QC plugin suite inclusive of everything on QC, a la Helix Native. In absence of that, early adopters would have been better served by demanding more discrete native blocks be added to the QC, and encouraging NDSP to drop pursuit of plugin "compatibility" altogether. But that's all water under the bridge now.

Hopefully they don’t figure out that the presets are not compatible with the cortex from the X plug-in and now have to rebuild Y presets so they will work with the Q because the X is not the same as the Y

 

[mbenigni]

Hopefully they don’t figure out that the presets are not compatible with the cortex from the X plug-in and now have to rebuild Y presets so they will work with the Q because the X is not the same as the Y

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Well, I certainly hope you're right. But the bottom line is that NDSP doesn't have any pressing incentive to expand the content in CorOS. The product is already doing fine. Hopefully, they'll add content as matter of good faith, but we're still left hanging with their generous interpretation of "SOON".

As for Line 6 charging for plugins... Helix Native costs a pittance if you're a Helix owner. (I don't exactly recall, but I'm not sure I paid for it at all.)

I think they do have an incentive: If the hardware doesn’t compete with the competition in the same pricerange, they will go out of business. No matter what goodies they sell in the plugins…if the hardware standalone doesn’t compete…game over. For this same reason, i have little worries that all the good stuff will end up behind a pay wall.
They are in a business where the competition goes forward…if you don’t have development teams building their expertise today….you will not be capable to catch up tommorow.

Besides that…even though there is a usergroup that would buy the QC again as is today (me included), there is obviously a market out there that demands content in higher quantities. If you have the hardware, and the capabilities to create that…that’s low hanging fruit any business would want to harvest.

Plus…they were very clear in their ambition…I’d expect them to have learned their lesson what raising false expectations cost. TINA is about creating accurate models…which in my mind means aimed at creating Coros amp models..cause their plugins are more about artist sounds.

In my mind the odds that they gonna hit the turbo button look good…time will tell