Line 6 Helix Stadium

[mikah912]

UI/UX has never been a strong suit for Fractal, and they remain in demand by virtue of other strengths (variety of amps, quality of amps and effects). Half their customers are borderline hostile to the idea of UI or QoL improvements. How that will look in a couple of years, with Stadium on the market and another generation of players adopting their first modelers... who knows? I personally think FAS is going to have to take a hard look at "ENTER EDIT EXIT HOME" and the like, but I'm also aware I'm a little more OCD than the average customer.

I just shake my head that there are people - and from his comments on Stadium launch day, Cliff unfortunately seems to be one - that believe that top-notch amp/cab/fx modeling and a fun, easy and intuitive UI/UX are mutually exclusive. Basically, if it's a good looking piece of gear that's fun and approachable, no frickin' way is it suitable for pros who want the best.

It's not a binary choice! Or at least it doesn't have to be. Fractal doesn't need to wear its Spartan UX and "page/enter/shift" mentality like a badge of honor.

The FM9 user experience is....fine. I grudgingly made my peace with several things because of the quality and diversity of amps and effects, but my excitement from Stadium stems from the fact that it looks like I can indeed have it all.

 

[mbenigni]

The FM9 user experience is....fine. I grudgingly made my peace with several things because of the quality and diversity of amps and effects, but my excitement from Stadium stems from the fact that it looks like I can indeed have it all.

It certainly looks that way. Of course, we have to reserve judgement until we're all hearing Stadium for ourselves. I'm extremely optimistic, but... I can clearly recall saying (10 years ago!) that Helix usability and versatility were so perfect for my needs (which, for the record, was true) that I wouldn't get hung up on whether amp tones were quite as much to my liking as my Kemper's, etc... And then getting quite hung up indeed.

Not trying to go all wet blanket here. Again, extremely optimistic. Just trying to manage my own expectations.

 

[laxu]

UI/UX has never been a strong suit for Fractal, and they remain in demand by virtue of other strengths (variety of amps, quality of amps and effects). Half their customers are borderline hostile to the idea of UI or QoL improvements. How that will look in a couple of years, with Stadium on the market and another generation of players adopting their first modelers... who knows? I personally think FAS is going to have to take a hard look at "ENTER EDIT EXIT HOME" and the like, but I'm also aware I'm a little more OCD than the average customer.

I think Fractal can do decent UIs, if it's for Axe-Edit. I have no major complaints about e.g the Dyna-Cab UI, or the tweaks they have made to how things look, or the "easy (knobs) vs advanced (list of all params)" dichotomy of the VP4-Edit.

They've gotten away with the hardware UI for a long time because most of the competition wasn't that much better. On paper the Quad Cortex should've trounced every competing product with a modern UI, plenty of DSP horsepower, compact form factor, modeling and captures in one etc. But in reality they haven't been able to match or surpass the wealth of features and sound quality of Fractal.

People are excited about the Line6 Stadium because it seems like it could deliver on the original premise of the QC, and then some, by not being a "me too" product but introducing new workflows and features. I have far more faith in Line6 delivering too.

However, that puts Fractal and Kemper as the last major modelers without modern, easy to use onboard user interfaces.

 

[Orvillain]

I just shake my head that there are people - and from his comments on Stadium launch day, Cliff unfortunately seems to be one - that believe that top-notch amp/cab/fx modeling and a fun, easy and intuitive UI/UX are mutually exclusive. Basically, if it's a good looking piece of gear that's fun and approachable, no frickin' way is it suitable for pros who want the best.

It's not a binary choice! Or at least it doesn't have to be. Fractal doesn't need to wear its Spartan UX and "page/enter/shift" mentality like a badge of honor.

The FM9 user experience is....fine. I grudgingly made my peace with several things because of the quality and diversity of amps and effects, but my excitement from Stadium stems from the fact that it looks like I can indeed have it all.

He never said any of that.

 

[mikah912]

He never said any of that.

Indeed. But when his response to the usability advancements of Stadium is to tout the supercomputer-like power of what they're working on next....that is a good indicator that he's not thinking co-existence, but rather mutual exclusivity.

Well, that and, uh,.....(gestures to existing product line and ignored UI improvement requests on all Fractal subforums)

 

[Mongillo19]

Indeed. But when his response to the usability advancements of Stadium is to tout the supercomputer-like power of what they're working on next....that is a good indicator that he's not thinking co-existence, but rather mutual exclusivity.

Well, that and, uh,.....(gestures to existing product line and ignored UI improvement requests on all Fractal subforums)

I think the "streamlined" UI of the VP4 may be a hint of what's to come for next gen.

Is it a total overhaul, no, but it is somewhat easier to use

 

[Orvillain]

Indeed. But when his response to the usability advancements of Stadium is to tout the supercomputer-like power of what they're working on next....that is a good indicator that he's not thinking co-existence, but rather mutual exclusivity.

Well, that and, uh,.....(gestures to existing product line and ignored UI improvement requests on all Fractal subforums)

It's an interesting issue. I don't doubt they know how people feel, Cliff and Matt and others must surely be reading forums all the time. There's probably tech reasons for why a bunch of stuff can't be done; maybe they're limited by their UI framework or something, I don't know.

At the end of the day, Helix Stadium comes out, sells like hot-cakes, we all do the comparison rigmarole again and again, and we establish that yeah, shit, Agoura is easily as good as Fractal... and that'll give Fractal motivation to do something.

What that will be, is anyone's guess.

These companies are all vying for access to our wallets. I say let them duke it out!

 

[mikah912]

It certainly looks that way. Of course, we have to reserve judgement until we're all hearing Stadium for ourselves. I'm extremely optimistic, but... I can clearly recall saying (10 years ago!) that Helix usability and versatility were so perfect for my needs (which, for the record, was true) that I wouldn't get hung up on whether amp tones were quite as much to my liking as my Kemper's, etc... And then getting quite hung up indeed.

View attachment 48024

Not trying to go all wet blanket here. Again, extremely optimistic. Just trying to manage my own expectations.

I get it. I'm truly of the mind now that all of top-tier players are there to varying degrees. None of them will ever catch up to the diversity of the Fractal amp/fx linuep, but a really good JCM800, Friedman, SLO, drive pedals and a few modern high gainers will replicate 99 percent of my Fractal-exclusive faves (Cameron CCV, JVM410H, FAS Modern, EVH Stealth). So why am I still using the FM9 as my main gigging rig?

I would replace it with the Helix, but that has half the power and is larger and more unwieldy.
I would replace it with the ToneMaster Pro, but that has no synth capabilities, has a wonkier Scenes functionality and has ridiculously limited signal chain routing flexibility.
I would replace it with a Quad Cortex, but NDSP is barely developing the unit, it doesn't have a synth and is missing vital effects for me.
I would replace it with a Kemper Stage MKII, but, uh....no.

So, yeah...Stadium 1.0 is checking all of these boxes for me. Stadium X.0 with Proxy cloning and effects cloning, plus maybe convolution reverb? Chef's kiss.

 

[mbenigni]

I think Fractal can do decent UIs, if it's for Axe-Edit. I have no major complaints about e.g the Dyna-Cab UI, or the tweaks they have made to how things look, or the "easy (knobs) vs advanced (list of all params)" dichotomy of the VP4-Edit.

Yeah, the Mac/PC software is... fine; I neither loved it nor hated it in the brief time I used it. Designing UI/UX on hardware is a totally different art and science, though, in absence of keyboard, mouse, large screen, and all of the "gimmes" of a general purpose OS. The first thing is the limited real estate and making sensible decisions about which physical controls do and do not make the grade. I think e.g. FM3's design falls apart here, right out of the gates.

They've gotten away with the hardware UI for a long time because most of the competition wasn't that much better. On paper the Quad Cortex should've trounced every competing product with a modern UI, plenty of DSP horsepower, compact form factor, modeling and captures in one etc.

I don't think "on paper" is exactly fair. These are all real characteristics of the device.

But in reality they haven't been able to match or surpass the wealth of features and sound quality of Fractal.

People are excited about the Line6 Stadium because it seems like it could deliver on the original premise of the QC, and then some, by not being a "me too" product but introducing new workflows and features. I have far more faith in Line6 delivering too.

Similarly, I don't think "me too" is a fair assessment of the QC. (I'd go so far as to say QC introduced some ideas that we're now seeing on Stadium.) But I agree with you regarding Fractal's sound quality and Line 6's track record for supporting their products.

 

[mbenigni]

and that'll give Fractal motivation to do something.

What that will be, is anyone's guess.

Question that emerges is, how much margin is there between manufacturing and distribution cost vs. street price on these things? Because in some cases, I'm worried that "something" will be: determine this product/ business model is no longer profitable, and exit stage left.

 

[Orvillain]

Question that emerges is, how much margin is there between manufacturing and distribution cost vs. street price on these things? Because in some cases, I'm worried that "something" will be: determine this product/ business model is no longer profitable, and exit stage left.

Calm down, Matilda. We've got plenty of naan bread.

 

[mbenigni]

Calm down, Matilda. We've got plenty of naan bread.

I'm like 3 Google's away from understanding this joke, but I'm already laughing.

 

[mbenigni]

So, yeah...Stadium 1.0 is checking all of these boxes for me. Stadium X.0 with Proxy cloning and effects cloning, plus maybe convolution reverb? Chef's kiss.

I'm feeling confident that it will. Alas...

 

[timbuck3]

It certainly looks that way. Of course, we have to reserve judgement until we're all hearing Stadium for ourselves. I'm extremely optimistic, but... I can clearly recall saying (10 years ago!) that Helix usability and versatility were so perfect for my needs (which, for the record, was true) that I wouldn't get hung up on whether amp tones were quite as much to my liking as my Kemper's, etc... And then getting quite hung up indeed.

View attachment 48024

Not trying to go all wet blanket here. Again, extremely optimistic. Just trying to manage my own expectations.

Here’s how I see it for me and maybe for some others. 10 years ago I bought the helix when it first came out. I think I got it for 1399 or something with a coupon and I think it was after a month or a month and a half I did return it because I was not impressed with the tones I was getting.
And as I said also, of course it’s been 10 years in development and it’s improved very much for what I’ve read, but I never re-bought it and tried it again. So my point is that getting the stadium? What kind of be like having those 10 years of development in the unit plus whatever their new stuff is going forwardso I feel like if within 30 days it does not rock my world then the helix is just not for me in general. I think that would be a fair assumption.

 

[mikah912]

It's an interesting issue. I don't doubt they know how people feel, Cliff and Matt and others must surely be reading forums all the time. There's probably tech reasons for why a bunch of stuff can't be done; maybe they're limited by their UI framework or something, I don't know.

At the end of the day, Helix Stadium comes out, sells like hot-cakes, we all do the comparison rigmarole again and again, and we establish that yeah, shit, Agoura is easily as good as Fractal... and that'll give Fractal motivation to do something.

What that will be, is anyone's guess.

These companies are all vying for access to our wallets. I say let them duke it out!

I want them to keep slugging each other with their best efforts. I love that Cliff has that special kind of petty where he'll redo his spring reverb in a week or so just to take a unique selling point away from a new contender that's offended him. All of this is great.

I'm sure they read these forums, and they're certainly active in the FAS forum.

In fact, that's what saps my confidence that he's making UI improvements a core tenet of what's next. You made two of the lowest-hanging fruit improvement threads and they went ignored. Others have about how to use the Enter button more intuitively. Ignored.

Ask for ____________ amp of the week, however, and you have a decent chance of Cliff responding directly. And as @mbenigni notes, a good number of FAS forum are basically cheering this intransigence on.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Intransigence?

 

[mbenigni]

Here’s how I see it for me and maybe for some others. 10 years ago I bought the helix when it first came out. I think I got it for 1399 or something with a coupon and I think it was after a month or a month and a half I did return it because I was not impressed with the tones I was getting.
And as I said also, of course it’s been 10 years in development and it’s improved very much for what I’ve read, but I never re-bought it and tried it again. So my point is that getting the stadium? What kind of be like having those 10 years of development in the unit plus whatever their new stuff is going forwardso I feel like if within 30 days it does not rock my world then the helix is just not for me in general. I think that would be a fair assumption.

I was onboard with Helix (in various formats, for various applications) on and off until a couple of months ago. UI, features, etc. etc. etc. were always fantastic. Effects (most of them) were great. I never quite gelled with the amp and cab tones. A handful were fine, but in general HX took some work and I found it distracting. (Totally willing to entertain the idea that this was user error, or all in my head LOL.)

Anyway, I'm confident that Agoura will be a big step forward in comparison with even the latest HX stuff.

 

[mbenigni]

Intransigence?

Googled. Who TF is Matilda, by the way?

I'm Dolores.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Googled. Who TF is Matilda, by the way?

She likes her naan!

 

[dws2384]

You can look at FracPad for what you get if you take Axe-Edit, and turn it into a touchscreen software. It kinda works, but doesn't really improve the experience a ton

Ya, Axe edit works well because you can see the whole signal chain, click directly on a block and instantly get all of the parameters to edit below. I dont find it cumbersome and I dont think many users do.

What always cracks me up is when you suggest a revamped UI like this on device itself (which admittedly is what helix has and QC ripped off) so many of the users get their backs up and start telling everyone its not pro "I can get around just fine clicking arrow and enter keys 10 times to adjust a simple parameter, just map what you want to the performance page" (that still requires multiple clicks and arrows to get to)

So you enjoy using Axe edit but making the on-device UI more similar to it is bad? Okay...