Line 6 Helix Stadium

[mbenigni]

Which one is the modeler that shall not be named and why? I've seen QC, Fractal, GT1000, Kemper, etc named here.

There's always been a low-level disdain for the Quad Cortex on TGF, so I sometimes feel like I'm sticking my neck out when I talk up its strengths.

In a Line 6 thread, I feel like I'm being borderline confrontational, which is not my intention at all.

(I thought everyone loved Kemper, but lately it's become pretty fashionable to on them too. I was making fun of Kemper before it was cool. )

 

[dk_ace]

I'm only talking about the Plexis. I know Fractal has more of the other Marshall types. All the Plexi models in the Fractal are lead spec and they all have quite a lot of gain. I'd rather have a few less aggressive ones mixed in. In addition to the bass spec amps, many of the early tremolo amps were shared cathode and had a smaller bright cap, which is basically what the Brit Trem model is. There isn't really anything in the Fractal that gets that type of sound.

I was talking mostly plexis too. I still say fractal has more variety. I have both devices.

Brit trem is an interesting amp. It has the most aggressive bright cap of all of the helix Marshall’s though, not a smaller one like you state. Most of the Helix Marshall models have modded small values for the bright cap or no bright cap at all, don’t get @James Freeman started on this lol. Brit Trem was the first one that had much of a bright cap.

If you want the fractal plexis to be less aggressive like the helix plexis, remove or dramatically lower the bright cap. I actually do this on all of them as I’m not a fan of the huge bright cap for most things.

D

 

[Mooselake]

Going to answer a hard "hell naw!" because public/brand perception is HARD to change (I do B2B marketing for a living).

I don't think that's Line 6's goal anyway. Fractal diehards are unreachable. Who is NOT unreachable are the people who've eschewed modeling altogether because "it sounds digital" or "it's too complicated" compared to analog. That's what this platform will ultimately target over the next 10+ years.

That rising tide will hopefully lift all boats in this space.

Corporate marketing strategies aside, I'd be surprised if the designers at L6 would sit around the water cooler and say "Fractal will always be better than us, so let's settle for second best in modeling and call it a day." That's not to say they'll successfully leapfrog Fractal to set the modeling bar higher with Stadium/Agoura, but I don't think they're pumping the brakes either. I agree many who are invested with/loyal to Fractal will stay there, and DI/L6 have more or less said they're not out to explicitly steal Fractal's customer base, but I also think they'll make their modeling the best they can and let the chips fall.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

I was making fun of Kemper before it was cool.

For the record, I've never once made fun of the product or the company.





(all of my critique was serious)

 

[EOengineer]

There's always been a low-level disdain for the Quad Cortex on TGF, so I sometimes feel like I'm sticking my neck out when I talk up its strengths.

In a Line 6 thread, I feel like I'm being borderline confrontational, which is not my intention at all.

(I thought everyone loved Kemper, but lately it's become pretty fashionable to on them too. I was making fun of Kemper before it was cool. )

FWIW a lot of the tribal stuff is superficial and I appreciate that you aren't self censoring, because you consistently provide well reasoned positions and are tolerant of other view points. I've never used QC. I don't think I'd support the company. However, that doesn't mean the QC is without merit or we shouldn't appreciate the things that device may do well.

There are people behind all of these products, and as such, the products are rarely ALWAYS good or ALWAYS bad. They just get painted that way by some of us who need to boil things down to oversimplified binary arguments all the time.

 

[mikah912]

Corporate marketing strategies aside, I'd be surprised if the designers at L6 would sit around the water cooler and say "Fractal will always be better than us, so let's settle for second best in modeling and call it a day." That's not to say they'll successfully leapfrog Fractal to set the modeling bar higher with Stadium/Agoura, but I don't think they're pumping the brakes either. I agree many who are invested with/loyal to Fractal will stay there, and DI/L6 have more or less said they're not out to explicitly steal Fractal's customer base, but I also think they'll make their modeling the best they can and let the chips fall.

Yeah, I don't think DI, Ben, Sam and the rest are the settling types either. They've said they respect the hell out of Fractal and they certainly have an Axe-FX on hand when they're doing testing. They have a QC and some other competitors as well.

That being said, the framing of them "catching up to Fractal" has always been off to me. Fractal is fantastic, and I have been a (mostly) happy FM9 owner for a while now. But it's not the best possible amp modeling throughout its entire range. At least, not to my ears. I prefer some TMP amp models to some of my FM9 models. I prefer some Helix models to some of my FM9 models (and Line 6 modeled a better version of the Bogner Ecstasy than Fractal did to boot). Heck, I preferred a couple of Quad Cortex models to Fractal when I owned a QC as well! Fractal has so much variety across most categories, however, that you can simply find an alternative that delivers what you want. And even if you don't, the easy access to topography and Saturation switches on every model make it not too hard to get there.

My point was more about consensus/perception more than anything else. Fractal has an implicit brand value and brand promise right now of being "the best possible quality" and "uncompromising". Line 6 has an implicit brand value and brand promise of offering a better user experience, more fun and also somehow compromising on sound compared to Fractal. Even if Agoura measurably and objectively nails realism in feel, response and sound beyond what's on the market now, it will take quite some time to change that brand perception.

 

[Karl Houseknecht]

DI/L6 have more or less said they're not out to explicitly steal Fractal's customer base, but I also think they'll make their modeling the best they can and let the chips fall.

I think that's a spot on observation. They didn't set out to create a "Fractal killer" device and yet they somehow ended up being serious competition.

 

[paisleywookiee]

I think that's a spot on observation. They didn't set out to create a "Fractal killer" device and yet they somehow ended up being serious competition.

Yeah, no company is going to go “let’s go to the absolute best quality we’re capable of, and then back it off a couple notches. We don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings.”

 

[banned]

Yes and no. Fractal is miles beyond pretty much anybody with "modern" Marshalls - your Jose mods, #34, boutique variants like Splawn, Cornford, Cameron, Friedman BE-100 iterations, Satch and non-Satch versions of the JVM410, etc. Always will be. I don't see Line 6 or anyone else trying to dedicate that much modeling real estate to that.

If you're looking for a more historical focus with Park amps or Bluesbreakers or whatnot, then Fractal is just like anybody else.

Ultimately, I believe Line 6 will add 3 or 4 more of these types in the Agoura era. If @Digital Igloo is looking to go where Fractal and everybody else has not tread, I'd suggest starting with Headfirst Amplifiction Alta, and maybe the Victory Super Sheriff 100. Heck, get the Bogner Snorkler in there too to complement the Ecstasy, Shiva and Uberschall.

I've already told him the first "Agoura Original" should be their own in-house version of this. Start with a Plexi circuit, add a tweakable and movable clipping diode where you can put it in several places within the topology (e.g. in the tonestack or with the PI or with V1/V2 or wherever), add tweakable negative feedback for the girth.

I don't need a million Marshalls. Just a few good ones - the Line6 list looks good to me. But....must.have.variac!

 

[ian_dissonance]

What's unique (or OMG elegant) about the implementation in The-Modeler-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named, is that you can have complex routing set up to suit one application (e.g. studio), and then use the individual lane settings to conditionally re-purpose each of them for another application (e.g. live), without changing any of your presets.

I’ve never had a preset sound good through an amp and cab just by defeating the cab modeling. Seems like an “emergency only” type of feature to me.

 

[Chocol8]

I’ve never had a preset sound good through an amp and cab just by defeating the cab modeling. Seems like an “emergency only” type of feature to me.

Yep, I have gravitated towards completely separate presets for different playback methods. Through a real cab, through my CLR at volume, and through headphones will end up being three separate presets even if the goal is basically the same. Each one gets dialed in at the volume I will use it at, and with a backing track or three to hear how it will sit in a mix.

 

[mbenigni]

I’ve never had a preset sound good through an amp and cab just by defeating the cab modeling. Seems like an “emergency only” type of feature to me.

Depends on the physical amp and cab, and the virtual model/ capture. As with anything else, you want to listen to the results before employing them.

 

[mikah912]

I don't need a million Marshalls. Just a few good ones - the Line6 list looks good to me. But....must.have.variac!

Yeah, a Variac'd Plexi would be cool, and they had a model for one back in the PodXT days.

But aside from that, many other variants are just the same Plexi or JCM800 circuit with additional clipping at various points in the topography, bigger poweramp sections and negative feedback controls to make them beefier.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I was making fun of Kemper before it was cool.

Be like Mr. Franck, just show your disdain for anything.

 

[mbenigni]

Be like Mr. Franck, just show your disdain for anything.

FM3, ToneX... no one is safe.

 

[Sascha Franck]

FM3, ToneX... no one is safe.

Don't stop at modelers!
Looking at you, Mr. benigni...

 

[mbenigni]

Looking at you, Mr. benigni...

Meaning... you will be leveling your disdain at me, personally?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Meaning... you will be leveling your disdain at me, personally?

Look:

Be like Mr. Franck, just show your disdain for anything.

What makes you think you'd be excluded? I expect sufficient answers!

 

[JiveTurkey]

 

[mbenigni]

What makes you think you'd be excluded? I expect sufficient answers!

I have no such answers. I am 100% worthy of your disdain. Please mock me.