It don’t matter cause the audience can’t tell the difference..

[paisleywookiee]

Yes, I am.

I know that might sound crazy to you, but having good musicians that know what they're doing truly is STEP 1 of getting a good sound.

Step 1 isn’t “cut a hole in the box”?

 

[gumtown]

Have not read every reply, but in response to the OP.
As far as live bands/music goes, the audience listens with their eyes.

 

[ejecta]

Opposite experience for me. The only place I hear these crazy hyperboles is on the internet.
Just last weekend I played a bill with 4 other bands, ranging from hard rock to punk to death metal. Everyone had amps, half stacks even. NO ONE gave the soundguy a hard time and vice versa. That's the normal to me, not the craziness being claimed here.

Yeah these guitar forums are ripe with hyperbole around gear that by no stretch of the imagination plays out like that in the real world.

 

[ejecta]

I don't need to google about playing live. I've been playing live for a long time. From local venues to large venues opening for national acts like Extreme, Kings X and many others..(Nuno and Ty don't use IEMs btw, I guess you know tone/mix better than them too?).
Sounds like you're working with a bunch of hacks.

We opened for Kings X too but it was a larger club in the early 2000’s. Well we opened for the band that opened for Kings X that night. Ty is a hero of mine so it was wild to be on the stage that he’d be on later. Those guys are great human beings btw and amazing live.

On the whole what do guys on the big gigs do to monitor themselves? I could give a fuck less. I don’t play in those scenarios and neither do a vast majority of people here. We use what works best for us.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

We opened for Kings X too but it was a larger club in the early 2000’s. Well we opened for the band that opened for Kings X that night. Ty is a hero of mine so it was wild to be on the stage that he’d be on later. Those guys are great human beings btw and amazing live.

On the whole what do guys on the big gigs do to monitor themselves? I could give a fuck less. I don’t play in those scenarios and neither do a vast majority of people here. We use what works best for us.

Bigger bands have their own FOH guy and monitor guy, so they get the stage and mains exactly how they want it every night.
In King's X case, Ty was playing a SS Orange Super Crush and 2 4x12s. He had no guitar on his wedges, it was all coming from the amp. Killer sound both on stage and out front.

I agree about Ty. One of my favorite players, and a really nice guy. (All the guys in King's X are).

 

[OneEng]

I don't need to google about playing live. I've been playing live for a long time. From local venues to large venues opening for national acts like Extreme, Kings X and many others..(Nuno and Ty don't use IEMs btw, I guess you know tone/mix better than them too?).
Sounds like you're working with a bunch of hacks.

In other words, you are not going to look into anything that might differ from your own opinion because any information that would differ from your opinion (and incorrect beliefs) can't possibly be right.

As for knowing more about mix than Ty and Nuno, hard to say isn't it? What can easily be said is that you using band members mostly popular in the 80's and 90's as examples of how to best utilize the tools of 2025 says volumes about how legitimate your statement is. Every touring act I have seen in the last 10 years used IEM's with VERY few exceptions .... and most of those being from very old bands that just never made the transition and have decided that doing it the old way is their way until they drop. That's fine, but it doesn't make it a good idea.

I could literally fill this post with THOUSANDS of examples of bands that use IEM's and lower stage volume to counter your "Extreme & Kings X" examples.

 

[Orvillain]

Lots.

The ones that I do see, it is usually primarily the vocalist. The guitarists and bassists usually do not. The drummer sometimes will if they need to play to click tracks.

I have a friend who plays in a band who tours Europe. He lives in Sweden, and him and his drummer (there is just the two of them) drive around in their little van playing shows all of the time. No IEM's. Several cabs; one of them being an 8x10 that he lies down on its side.

I've lost many a soundcheck to jumped up bands who think they're better and bigger than they are, dragging their entire IEM rack into the venue and wasting everyone's time by setting it up; and genuinely, I cannot think of a time where anymore than 30 people were there to watch them.

By the time we went on stage, the room was at least double that.

Whenever I've played festivals like ArcTangent, the modeller and IEM setups are very thin on the ground. Largely speaking, in the post-rock/post-metal/math-rock/atmospheric prog rock world... people are not using this stuff. They're still largely using Boss pedals into cranked amps.

And it is fucking glorious.

 

[OneEng]

BS.

The rolling Stones
U2
Aerosmith
Foo Fighters
Guns N' Roses
Queen (Adam Lambert)
Muse
Radiohead
Coldplay
The Killers
Arctic Monkeys
Imagine Dragons
Metallica
Slipknot
Iron Maden
Avenged Sevenfold
Tool
Green Day
blink 182
Paramore
Fall Out Boy

.... and THOUSANDS more. Just because YOU think it's true doesn't make it so. Go to a live sound forum to get advice for live sound equipment providers that do it for a living, not a guitar forum. Even better GOOGLE IT. There are good reasons that low stage volume and IEM's are THE STANDARD for touring bands. I don't expect you to believe it just because I say it. LOOK IT UP!

Oh, I forgot, you don't need to look anything up because you already KNOW better than the entire industry.

BTW, I agree that to get your guitar to sing, you have to have an amp or speaker pointed AT the guitar to move the air. Still, that is EASILY achievable without destroying the mix with silly high stage volume.

Please. Come at me with more than just "I know truth because I know". Seriously.

I am also particularly moved by the argument "I saw a touring guitarist do it in the 90's therefore it is still a good idea". Just .... wow.

For anyone serious about having good sound out front for your band, do your own research. Ask popular touring bands in your area. Ask sound providers. Anything but guitar players.

And yes, I do realize this is a guitar forum, but the question is FOH related.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

In other words, you are not going to look into anything that might differ from your own opinion because any information that would differ from your opinion (and incorrect beliefs) can't possibly be right.

As for knowing more about mix than Ty and Nuno, hard to say isn't it? What can easily be said is that you using band members mostly popular in the 80's and 90's as examples of how to best utilize the tools of 2025 says volumes about how legitimate your statement is. Every touring act I have seen in the last 10 years used IEM's with VERY few exceptions .... and most of those being from very old bands that just never made the transition and have decided that doing it the old way is their way until they drop. That's fine, but it doesn't make it a good idea.

I could literally fill this post with THOUSANDS of examples of bands that use IEM's and lower stage volume to counter your "Extreme & Kings X" examples.

Obviously there are a lot of acts on IEM…but that doesn’t make it the best in every situation, for every type of musician/music. A small club with 2 speakers on poles is very different then playing an arena, and a bunch of jazzcats have different needs then the players in the pit of the grammy awards….and there are al lot variations in between.

In my mind there is no “this is always best”.
Personally I gravitate to amps on stage whenever possible.…but I also opted for iem/silent myself in situations where that was simply the best option.

 

[Orvillain]

BS.

The rolling Stones
U2
Aerosmith
Foo Fighters
Guns N' Roses
Queen (Adam Lambert)
Muse
Radiohead
Coldplay
The Killers
Arctic Monkeys
Imagine Dragons
Metallica
Slipknot
Iron Maden
Avenged Sevenfold
Tool
Green Day
blink 182
Paramore
Fall Out Boy

.... and THOUSANDS more. Just because YOU think it's true doesn't make it so. Go to a live sound forum to get advice for live sound equipment providers that do it for a living, not a guitar forum. Even better GOOGLE IT. There are good reasons that low stage volume and IEM's are THE STANDARD for touring bands. I don't expect you to believe it just because I say it. LOOK IT UP!

Oh, I forgot, you don't need to look anything up because you already KNOW better than the entire industry.

BTW, I agree that to get your guitar to sing, you have to have an amp or speaker pointed AT the guitar to move the air. Still, that is EASILY achievable without destroying the mix with silly high stage volume.

Please. Come at me with more than just "I know truth because I know". Seriously.

I am also particularly moved by the argument "I saw a touring guitarist do it in the 90's therefore it is still a good idea". Just .... wow.

For anyone serious about having good sound out front for your band, do your own research. Ask popular touring bands in your area. Ask sound providers. Anything but guitar players.

And yes, I do realize this is a guitar forum, but the question is FOH related.

You asked if anyone knew any touring acts not using them. I answered your question.

Just accept that there is no one size fits all solution to ANYTHING to do with audio, and then we'll all be starting from the same point.

This whole conversation started when you came in and started talking absolute bollocks, pretending you know everything about everything, and in general just being disagreeable to the point where your contributions are not worth anything.

 

[OneEng]

Obviously there are a lot of acts on IEM…but that doesn’t make it the best in every situation, for every type of musician/music. A small club with 2 speakers on poles is very different then playing an arena, and a bunch of jazzcats have different needs then the players in the pit of the grammy awards….and there are al lot variations in between.

In my mind there is no “this is always best”.
Personally I gravitate to amps on stage whenever possible.…but I also opted for iem/silent myself in situations where that was simply the best option.

Fair enough.

Additionally, there are plenty of bands in smaller clubs that wont use them anyway. You have to do the best you can with the cards you are delt.

You asked if anyone knew any touring acts not using them. I answered your question.

Just accept that there is no one size fits all solution to ANYTHING to do with audio, and then we'll all be starting from the same point.

This whole conversation started when you came in and started talking absolute bollocks, pretending you know everything about everything, and in general just being disagreeable to the point where your contributions are not worth anything.

I disagree where I disagree. It doesn't make me disagreeable. Submitting information that doesn't line up with what others expect the answer to be isn't disagreeable.

I am surprised you don't know any touring acts using IEM's. It is so surprising since I know many people who do sound for a living and your experience is unique from all others I have spoken to. They, in fact, say the exact opposite. There are only the rare touring act that doesn't use them. Considering the vast array of data available from 10-20 other sources, it makes your information very suspect.

Of course there is no one-size-fits-all solution for on-stage monitoring. I have already said I have done amps on stage as the FOH sound for everything but kick and vocals and been very successful with it. When did I say that there was ONLY one solution?

Where my absolute has been is that high stage volume ALWAYS ruins FOH sound BECAUSE it drowns the vocals and creates mush in the FOH mix. I have stipulated that "High Stage Volume" is defined by the stage volume level such that the volume of the stage near the vocal mic is near to the level of the singer at the mic. Once this level is reached, it is impossible to have a good mix period (unless you have some genre of music where the vocals are not important .... which I have never heard of).

Please explain what is disagreeable about anything I have written? It is certainly not my intent to be disagreeable to anyone. It is also not my intent to roll over because a few people disagree with something I said. When people have good counter points, I acknowledge it. When I am wrong, I acknowledge it. When others make non-sensical arguments, accuse me of being in some unique situation that makes my point irrelevant, dismiss my arguments with a single word with no evidence to support their dismissal, then I defend my position. Perhaps that is disagreeable to you?

 

[Orvillain]

I am surprised you don't know any touring acts using IEM's. It is so surprising since I know many people who do sound for a living and your experience is unique from all others I have spoken to. They, in fact, say the exact opposite. There are only the rare touring act that doesn't use them. Considering the vast array of data available from 10-20 other sources, it makes your information very suspect.

Don't be surprised. Not every band uses IEM's. Faaaaaar from it.

From the lowliest 1 man and an acoustic acts, through to the largest multi-person orchestras, not everyone uses IEMs, not everyone uses modellers, not everyone utilises quiet stages.

Where my absolute has been is that high stage volume ALWAYS ruins FOH sound BECAUSE it drowns the vocals and creates mush in the FOH mix.

And I say again, not always true. Instrumental post-rock bands have way more room to be louder than your average singer fronted pop band.

You are guilty of looking at all of this through your own lens and not considering other people's experiences or backgrounds, and THAT is why you are disagreeable - and acting like a bit of a silly sausage, truth be told.

 

[OneEng]

Have not read every reply, but in response to the OP.
As far as live bands/music goes, the audience listens with their eyes.

Just saw this. It is an interesting point.

Sure. This is true to some extent .... maybe more in some venues than others though. I have seen an entire wall of empty 4x12 cabs stacked up while all the sound for the guitar was coming from a modeler . So, there must be some truth to your statement or acts wouldn't be hauling around all that lumber!

Another facet of this statement is the light show. The same band WITH a good light show will be remembered COMPLETELY differently from the same band with no light show.

It does make you think doesn't it?

Maybe we should all be spending more on those cool motion lights and LED cans instead of the latest modeler .

 

[OneEng]

Don't be surprised. Not every band uses IEM's. Faaaaaar from it.

From the lowliest 1 man and an acoustic acts, through to the largest multi-person orchestras, not everyone uses IEMs, not everyone uses modellers, not everyone utilises quiet stages.

Never said that every band uses IEM's. I said that vast majority of touring acts do. The unspoken part of that statement is: Given the budget, know how, and choice, IEMs are usually the best solution.

And I say again, not always true. Instrumental post-rock bands have way more room to be louder than your average singer fronted pop band.

You are guilty of looking at all of this through your own lens and not considering other people's experiences or backgrounds, and THAT is why you are disagreeable - and acting like a bit of a silly sausage, truth be told.

Sooo.... you are saying you play in, and run sound for Instrumental post-rock bands almost exclusively? Seems like you are going way out on a limb to find a situation where my "absolute" statement would be incorrect. Honestly, I had to look up what a "Instrumental post-rock band" was. While I haven't been in every region in the US (or the world), I have been to quite a number of the most popular places in the world, and I have never once seen a band like this live. Not saying they don't exist mind you, just that they must be fairly rare since I have never encountered one.

Now, on a more serious note, your last statement really gave me a belly roll laugh "acting like a bit of a silly sausage, truth be told"! I noticed your use of "bollix" earlier too. My brit friends say this to me often . It's right up there with "spots and stripes" from the pool hall, "open the bonnet" which is a sure way to confuse someone from the US, or "Water Closet" which I once wandered past for 30 minutes in a Jag plant in the UK while I did the pee pee dance.

Anyway, thanks for the belly laugh. Always good for the soul.

In the UK, I did notice that there were more small pubs with live music than in the US. Lots more solo and duo acts and fewer full bands. My friends got me up on stage as a stand in while I was in Manchester on business some years ago. Great crowd. I played for about 30 minutes and had such a line of pints people bought for me that even with the help of my engineering team (about 5 of us) couldn't finish up the charity drinks. Super cool night.

In general, space in the UK is MUCH tighter than in the US. Can't believe you guys can navigate those parking spaces under hotels. Of course, the evidence on the concrete pillars shows that not everyone can. For we US guys, it is either impossible, or it takes us 20 minutes to get out of the space without hitting anything.

Love the pints though! Its a much better way of serving than we have in the US.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

In other words, you are not going to look into anything that might differ from your own opinion because any information that would differ from your opinion (and incorrect beliefs) can't possibly be right.

As for knowing more about mix than Ty and Nuno, hard to say isn't it? What can easily be said is that you using band members mostly popular in the 80's and 90's as examples of how to best utilize the tools of 2025 says volumes about how legitimate your statement is. Every touring act I have seen in the last 10 years used IEM's with VERY few exceptions .... and most of those being from very old bands that just never made the transition and have decided that doing it the old way is their way until they drop. That's fine, but it doesn't make it a good idea.

I could literally fill this post with THOUSANDS of examples of bands that use IEM's and lower stage volume to counter your "Extreme & Kings X" examples.

well, I gave you examples of bands that I actually played with recently.
And there's nothing for you to "counter". I know a lot of people use IEMs these days, but there are a lot who don't and a good sound guy knows how to mix both scenarios.
For someone who likes silent stages, you're quite the yapper.

 

[Orvillain]

I had to look up what a "Instrumental post-rock band" was.

Tells us all everything we need to know.

 

[OneEng]

Tells us all everything we need to know.

Really? What exactly does it tell you?

 

[OneEng]

well, I gave you examples of bands that I actually played with recently.
And there's nothing for you to "counter". I know a lot of people use IEMs these days, but there are a lot who don't and a good sound guy knows how to mix both scenarios.
For someone who likes silent stages, you're quite the yapper.

And I gave you examples of a bunch of bands that use them. It's a pointless argument you are making. Sure, you warmed up for a touring act that DIDN'T use IEM's. What on Earth does that prove? Do you believe that means silent stages and IEM's are NOT used by a ton of other touring acts? Does that mean that every other act that DOES use them is stupid? What are you trying to say?

As far as mixing goes, I agree. You have to handle wedges and amps. It's part of the territory. What ISN'T part of the territory is high stage volume as I have defined it several times. That is just bad no matter how you slice it .... period.

I do have to give it to @Orvillain. He actually came up with a situation where high stage volume wouldn't much matter. Its music that is rarely seen in a live concert, but still ..... it IS a use case..

As far as "yapping" goes, I am not one to back down from an argument simply because others have decided that facts are unimportant.

Bands that have high stage volume simply sound like crap. This isn't to say that no band plays like this. Unfortunately there are quite a number of them.... they just don't sound very good out front .... and this is a shame since many of them have excellent musicians and vocalists (the vocals are the MOST important part of the music. Sorry guitarists, but it's true).

 

[ian_dissonance]

I do have to give it to @Orvillain. He actually came up with a situation where high stage volume wouldn't much matter. Its music that is rarely seen in a live concert, but still ..... it IS a use case..

Ok, I mostly agreed with you on this until here. Instrumental post-rock isn’t some dark corner genre, some of these bands are selling out big rooms every tour.

 

[GuitarBilly74]

And I gave you examples of a bunch of bands that use them. It's a pointless argument you are making. Sure, you warmed up for a touring act that DIDN'T use IEM's. What on Earth does that prove? Do you believe that means silent stages and IEM's are NOT used by a ton of other touring acts? Does that mean that every other act that DOES use them is stupid? What are you trying to say?

As far as mixing goes, I agree. You have to handle wedges and amps. It's part of the territory. What ISN'T part of the territory is high stage volume as I have defined it several times. That is just bad no matter how you slice it .... period.

I do have to give it to @Orvillain. He actually came up with a situation where high stage volume wouldn't much matter. Its music that is rarely seen in a live concert, but still ..... it IS a use case..

As far as "yapping" goes, I am not one to back down from an argument simply because others have decided that facts are unimportant.

Bands that have high stage volume simply sound like crap. This isn't to say that no band plays like this. Unfortunately there are quite a number of them.... they just don't sound very good out front .... and this is a shame since many of them have excellent musicians and vocalists (the vocals are the MOST important part of the music. Sorry guitarists, but it's true).

No one is arguing for excessive volume. Just not zero volume.
You're ranting about a bunch of nonsense and talking in circles.