What is good? Is “ the best” better or just different?

[laxu]

I will start by saying that good and better start out being easily discernible and not really a matter of opinion but when you get up to excellence and the idea of “best” it gets difficult.
Particularly these days when better manufacturing has dramatically improved the cheaper and middle of the market.
Digital has substantially reduced the cost and difficulty of making “good” tone.
But if I sat you down in a studio with “ holy grail “ gear I assure you the difference is night and day.
The fact that most of us never experience any of this means over time people loose connection with how good it can be and persuade themselves that good is in fact “ best “. Dismissing the truly great as “ hype” without any real experience of it citing that it is “a matter of opinion “, it mostly isn’t , and by experience I mean playing through it yourself.
On record you can’t tell so does it matter?
This is a fair question and one that you can only answer yourself.
Let’s be honest Larry Carlton playing his garbage Sire through a good amp will still sound good but how much better can it get?
I would say to people that the difference is like hifi. Spend £3k and you get something very good but spend £15k on the right things and the difference is hard to describe but incredible to experience.
I’m not saying the £3k system is bad it is actually going to be very good.

I'd say recording something is a good way to take your personal emotions out of it.

You are going to feel different sitting in front of a big ass vintage Marshall Superlead halfstack, vs having say an Axe-Fx 3 on a table. Let's say that Fractal has perfected their amp simulation, and our Marshall stack is Fractal's reference rig.

Even if your ears tell you that the Axe-Fx sounds identical, you are still going to think "that real Plexi has something going on!" You have already tied your emotions to an expectation when you saw the real deal.

Similarly I'll be the first to say that the boutique guitars I have, as great as they are, are not truly that much better than some of the regular production line guitars I have. They are a luxury I am happy to be able to afford and use, but I am happily playing my more affordable guitars too. To me it's not really about how much you spend but rather if you connect with that instrument, if it inspires you etc.

 

[Eagle]

Not sure if this is in the same topic but for me the splitting hairs BS comes down to feel, response and inspiration.

Sure you could play out of any old can and make it sound good but if you play out of something a little better that you love you may play better and have more inspiration and fun with it = better end result

Yes something that makes you smile will make you play better.

 

[MadAsAHatter]

Pro Tip: If you ever go see YJM, make damn sure you bring earplugs. I didn't, and the entire evening was literally painful in my ears - holding my hands over my ears only helped somewhat.

 

[TSJMajesty]

I had a sticker that said that on my guitar case. Back when I was much younger.
Now I have to be careful- Tinnitus sucks.

 

[Elric]

Even if your ears tell you that the Axe-Fx sounds identical, you are still going to think "that real Plexi has something going on!" You have already tied your emotions to an expectation when you saw the real deal.

Absolutely. Confirmation bias. It's what's for dinner.

By giving 'everyone a voice' the internet has, ironically, limited everyone's views as they seek out information and favor sources that confirm their beliefs rather than those that broaden their viewpoints. Applies to guitar gear discussions along with everything else.

 

[Eagle]

Absolutely. Confirmation bias. It's what's for dinner.

By giving 'everyone a voice' the internet has, ironically, limited everyone's views as they seek out information and favor sources that confirm their beliefs rather than those that broaden their viewpoints. Applies to guitar gear discussions along with everything else.

Blind testing is a thing.

 

[Elric]

Blind testing is a thing.

Did you have a point? LOL. Double blind testing is also a thing and even better; but confirmation bias still persists.... one of the features of it is'belief perseverance' which is the persistence of a belief in the face of contradicting evidence.

We've been playing the YT guess the modeler game forever and people are still making claims about modelers not even being close to tube amps, etc.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

ITT: Ass Cheeks Flapping

Pro Tip: If you ever go see YJM, make damn sure you bring earplugs. I didn't, and the entire evening was literally painful in my ears - holding my hands over my ears only helped somewhat.

especially when there's a technical issue! Saw him play during the first Gen Axe tour, but as soon as the amps came on -- SCREEEEEEEEE -- not even guitar feedback. He started trash-talking the stage crew, got booed, missed a pick-kick and got more pissed off.

I walked right out.

 

[laxu]

Did you have a point? LOL. Double blind testing is also a thing and even better; but confirmation bias still persists.... one of the features of it is'belief perseverance' which is the persistence of a belief in the face of contradicting evidence.

We've been playing the YT guess the modeler game forever and people are still making claims about modelers not even being close to tube amps, etc.

I like to bring up my Bogner Goldfinger vs BluGuitar Amp 1 comparisons a few years ago for this.

• Same cab used for both.
• Both dialed to 100 dB @ 1m volumes.
• Bogner as reference, and BluGuitar dialed to as close as possible by ear.

I had a really hard time reconciling that the BluGuitar sounded just as good, felt just as good to play, and it got louder when cranked all the way. All because the BluGuitar is an ugly little box, and how could that ever be the same thing as glowing tubes and big ass transformers?

I still think "What if I'm missing something?! I should buy another tube amp!" even though my ears say that everything is right where it should be.

I've done a similar thing with an Axe-Fx 3 and felt I could get that to behave pretty much the same too, but there's still an allure to the nice tolexed box that just makes us think "now this is a real amp!"

 

[MirrorProfiles]

confirmation bias doesn’t need to be a bad thing, if it removes doubt and keeps you moving forward and focussed on what you should be doing, its worth it.

Sure, you can dial a modeller in to sound authentic or indistinguishable to the real thing - but you only know for sure once you’ve compared both side by side. At which point, you may as well have just used the real thing and saved yourself the time and bother.

I don’t think vintage/rare/collectible/expensive translates to good, but there might be some novelty involved. Quite often part of the novelty may be that it’s a bit broken or out of spec.

A lot of people buy expensive gear simply to remove doubt and to be confident with their options. It doesn’t always work out that way, but our brains tend to trust things more if they cost more money.

 

[Eagle]

I like to bring up my Bogner Goldfinger vs BluGuitar Amp 1 comparisons a few years ago for this.

• Same cab used for both.
• Both dialed to 100 dB @ 1m volumes.
• Bogner as reference, and BluGuitar dialed to as close as possible by ear.

I had a really hard time reconciling that the BluGuitar sounded just as good, felt just as good to play, and it got louder when cranked all the way. All because the BluGuitar is an ugly little box, and how could that ever be the same thing as glowing tubes and big ass transformers?

I still think "What if I'm missing something?! I should buy another tube amp!" even though my ears say that everything is right where it should be.

I've done a similar thing with an Axe-Fx 3 and felt I could get that to behave pretty much the same too, but there's still an allure to the nice tolexed box that just makes us think "now this is a real amp!"

The feel is different. The way the speaker interacts is completely different. The lack of latency completely is different. The difference between analog and digital is resolution . If you don’t care fine but it is not the same.

 

[laxu]

The feel is different. The way the speaker interacts is completely different. The lack of latency completely is different. The difference between analog and digital is resolution . If you don’t care fine but it is not the same.

The BluGuitar is analog so no latency, and whatever they do makes its poweramp also behave just like a tube amp to my ears and hands.

For modelers, you always have to consider what you get in return. I think minimal extra latency like on an Axe-Fx 3 is irrelevant compared to gaining 100+ amp models and studio grade fx.

You could always flip the script and complain how say that coveted vintage Marshall Superlead is so goddamn loud you can't use it at its best anywhere, or how you need to compromise its sound/feel with an attenuator, or listen to it through studio monitors while it's miced up in a studio, or how noisy it gets, how heavy it is to move around etc.

To me "best" is always a mixture of how it sounds/feels, and its practicality.

 

[Eagle]

The BluGuitar is analog so no latency, and whatever they do makes its poweramp also behave just like a tube amp to my ears and hands.

For modelers, you always have to consider what you get in return. I think minimal extra latency like on an Axe-Fx 3 is irrelevant compared to gaining 100+ amp models and studio grade fx.

You could always flip the script and complain how say that coveted vintage Marshall Superlead is so goddamn loud you can't use it at its best anywhere, or how you need to compromise its sound/feel with an attenuator, or listen to it through studio monitors while it's miced up in a studio, or how noisy it gets, how heavy it is to move around etc.

To me "best" is always a mixture of how it sounds/feels, and its practicality.

And this is the title of this thread. I have Axe 3 and amps from Soldano, Diezel , Fryette and a couple of solid state options in the form of a powered Kemper and Matrix power amps. I use all of it . But best is another thing and it’s definitely tube and no DAC anyway in the dry signal . As for FX that is a difficult one and for another thread. But practical convenient and good enough are not best.

 

[Life Eats Life]

I will start by saying that good and better start out being easily discernible and not really a matter of opinion but when you get up to excellence and the idea of “best” it gets difficult.
Particularly these days when better manufacturing has dramatically improved the cheaper and middle of the market.
Digital has substantially reduced the cost and difficulty of making “good” tone.
But if I sat you down in a studio with “ holy grail “ gear I assure you the difference is night and day.
The fact that most of us never experience any of this means over time people loose connection with how good it can be and persuade themselves that good is in fact “ best “. Dismissing the truly great as “ hype” without any real experience of it citing that it is “a matter of opinion “, it mostly isn’t , and by experience I mean playing through it yourself.
On record you can’t tell so does it matter?
This is a fair question and one that you can only answer yourself.
Let’s be honest Larry Carlton playing his garbage Sire through a good amp will still sound good but how much better can it get?
I would say to people that the difference is like hifi. Spend £3k and you get something very good but spend £15k on the right things and the difference is hard to describe but incredible to experience.
I’m not saying the £3k system is bad it is actually going to be very good.
My personal perspective is I want to find the “best” gear. This is what my customers pay me to help them with.
This video is an example of what I am talking about.

This is exactly why I say tone is objective.
And to individuals, what sounds good to most are
the records/recordings mixed up to sell.
Of course it’ll be good.
Good where?
Many things in the signal that make a huge difference including the persons health when they touch the instrument.
We could go on forever

 

[Elric]

confirmation bias doesn’t need to be a bad thing, if it removes doubt and keeps you moving forward and focussed on what you should be doing, its worth it.

Sure, you can dial a modeller in to sound authentic or indistinguishable to the real thing - but you only know for sure once you’ve compared both side by side. At which point, you may as well have just used the real thing and saved yourself the time and bother.

I don’t think vintage/rare/collectible/expensive translates to good, but there might be some novelty involved. Quite often part of the novelty may be that it’s a bit broken or out of spec.

A lot of people buy expensive gear simply to remove doubt and to be confident with their options. It doesn’t always work out that way, but our brains tend to trust things more if they cost more money.

That's fine/fair; if the point of the discussion is to establish what works for some specific individual; but a bias is an obstacle in a discussion concerning what constitutes fact/truth. People function well all the time with illusions about what is true and what isn't; we're designed to, and there are some very practical falsehoods that are healthy for some folks but it is all orthogonal to a discussion about what the reality of something is and what others should believe.

The 'problem' (if it really is one) in discussions like this and the reason they are never going to do anything but go in circles; is that people will state their biased opinion as if it were factual truth and indeed assert it as such and that is diametrically opposed to some other person's take.

Neither side has any tangible evidence either way and, boom, internet slap fight.

It's all good. I'm self-aware. I personally have a *pile* of analog/tube gear. My digital gear has been stable for a long time now but I' keep flipping/buying tube stuff. Part of the reason that I like the analog stuff is unrelated to 'betterness' in a toanz sense:

1. It's simple and tactile in usage. i.e. it is a box with a couple of switches and a few knobs.
2. I'm never inclined to question whether it sounds as good as some other thing. It either sounds good or it doesn't because 'it's real'.
3. I like collecting things I'm into/historical reference

But, in discussions like this, I have done the fool myself with a modeler or failed blind tests thing enough to be confident that the evidence points to the fact that the analog tube/stuff only seems to really have one application that digital/SS seems to be unable to match 1:1 and that is the power amp's low frequency response in an amp in the room situation.

I think that is really about the only thing I (currently) believe requires tubes to get exactly "right" and even that is not super important. Tube amps themselves are going to vary in this regard and that may not even be a tangible component (beyond feel) for results in a mix. I am not even sure it is desirable in all applications.

 

[joebloggs]

OMG! Old guys pining away about the inadequacies of newbies and dullards. How novel.

Hope they all patted themselves on the back when they were done.

I believe in good, better, and best. But I ain't going to hold it over people's heads
like I am some kind of Prophet sent from the Sonic Gods to show people who the
true Priests of Audio are.

Agreed...Sonic God's.... Priests of Audio....? Who the fuck are these people? Good tone is in the ears of the listener/player...period. I get it that people like Gilmour, SRV etc...will be the standard for many(me included) but we will always strive to do the best we can with what we have.

 

[PLX]

Sonic God's.... Priests of Audio....?

Two good band names right there.

 

[Ed DeGenaro]

I see it all through work . I am really talking about knowing the difference nothing more. So many people don’t even have a reference point these days.

You mean like "sounds like a Plexi", yet most never wrestled that pig in mud?

 

[ChordInversion]

I think a lot of these conversations boil down to people saying "you" when they mean "I" and "me."

Long ago I personally concluded that tone doesn't exist outside of context. Take a tone that sounds spectacular to me by myself, throw in drums, bass, keys, and a vocalist, and suddenly it sounds flat to me. Take a tone that sounds perfect in that song and strip everything else away, and it sounds weird. It doesn't matter what classification of gear it is. To me, the only good tone is the tone that a given musician decides fits a given musical context. Song, mix, time, mood - the variables go on and on. ("Justnick" did a video on something like this years ago, but it has vanished).

Likewise "the real thing" is sort of a weird side effect of marketing that companies brought upon themselves. Digital (and some analog) devices were designed and marketed to make the sounds of specific known amps and pedals. That was the easiest way to sell them to a notoriously (and ironically, given the instrument's history) conservative market. Get the sounds of a bunch of amps for the cost of one. Get them at any volume with great consistency in a device that is lightweight, compact, and contains extensive switching capability. Get them with built in direct recording capabailiy that gives you the sound of all these speakers and all those mics. By that very token, the "real thing"/simulation dynamic becomes inexorable. Of course it does. Call comething a simulator (or profiler or modeler), and you've etched part of the discussion in stone. For some people, it becomes completely insurmountable, regardless of what they hear. It is neither possible nor relevant to try to authoritatively say someone is "right" or "wrong" about what they like. Given the realities of cognition when it comes to hearing, it's plain old pointless to even try.

Connoisseurism is clearly a fun hobby for a lot of people. Anything from coffee to gear can become not merely a thing, but a cause to a lot of people. Throw in the florid language of creative expression, and all kinds of emotional investment can come into play. Then the interested parties - people selling old and new - are a force multiplier. It is also understandable to mistakenly conclude that one's own personal and/or professional experience is authoritatively applicable to other people. Likewise, it is as common as air to determine that professionals in some field should be deferred to in certain aesthetic matters. There's no real crime in any of that. There's likewise no crime in ignoring all of it completely.

Tim Pierce proudly uses all manner of digital items in his professional work, so I wouldn't call him a particularly strident advocate for gear orthodoxy, regardless of the debate bait video. Good friends I've known for decades vary spectacularly on this front. I know guitarists who love using modelers but consider amps "the real thing," and a level above. I know some who have only used one amp each for decades. I know some who are all in on digital gear and will never go back. There is no mapping I've ever heard between their gear choices and the quality of their musical results.

Personally, I find it freeing to use digital devices specifically when I am not thinking about what "real thing" is involved. When I save presets, I make sure the name makes no reference to any of the models used. And I love sounds I get from "not like anything analog" devices like BOSS' MDP dirt pedals and the X-amp models in the GT-1000CORE. I am 100% certain that lots of people hate those sounds, and that some of said people are more "qualified" than I am. Not sure why either I or they would care.

Note that I didn't say "you" anywhere above, because I have no idea how it works for you, and I have no business trying to tell you.

 

[newholland]

its funny- i think about pursuing at least 'good' to my ears all the time- but i think my take on it may be different than some. i know i can't AFFORD best, but i can afford better than crap- and like you say- knowledge is power! so ill find things that speak directly to me- my mark iib did that but heysoos did i need to learn how to use it to optimize the thing. so over a span of literally years, i tweaked and altered and tried even the most absurd and unlikely shit to see where the thing went waaaaay beyond the suggestions of mesa and every forum.

and then you alter typical volume? BEST changes.

fuuuuuuuuu.... start again.

this isnt to say the premise is wrong in any way- but to infer that its a moving target based on application. frinstance.. i generally love evms at volume. at home for low volume? i prefer an altec 417 cause the big alnico magnet compresses at lower volume and sounds louder than it is, and to boot, its less efficient. hee.. neat trick. but loud its like a compressor, which is kinda no bueno. bleh. but thats just a dumb isolated example of which im sure theres a million. would santana day im wrong? probably.. but he'd be equally galled by the sounds i use and the music i make.

but yeah- the geniuses of 'best' apply what they need from applications they find themselves in all the time, and i kinda think we all need at least a small arsenal of stuff to meet those needs fo sho- cause even if we all had crazy expensive shit, theres no guarantee our use case is gonna make that biz happy enough to BE best!