Hybrid Rig Setups!

[deadpool_25]

This was from a couple years ago. It was setup as WDW. Dry signal going through the EVH head and center cab, wet signals going through the Powerstage 700 and outer cabs. I was using the FM9 for both amp modeling and effects so I was skipping the EVH preamp here.

Sounded absolutely epic.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Analog up front, digital in the loop. Always.

This is what I will perhaps change back to one day, but with the GT-1000 it does work quite fine with digital-analog-digital for me, at least so far.
Not gonna lie, I have tried it without the pre-loop-digital stuff and some of the analog dirt boxes do feel sort of noticeably different, some more than others. But I think it's not always better, even if they may not sound 100% as intended anymore.
Whatever, atm practicability dictates doing it as I am for the time being. To get to the same level of comfort, I needed an additional remote controlled loop switcher, an additional wah, a compressor and a dirt box - and these are only the things to get started, as I also like to use some modulation FX of the GT pre-dirt. As a result, I'd likely also need a new pedalboard or get rid of the GT and find something else for my post-FX duties (I could use the Stomp for that). In the end, it'd be pretty much like my old setup, but I would never go back to that but needed a pimped up version.

I'm defenitely having an eye on the Tone King Imperial pedal and should I ever get one and like it, it might be worth rethinking my current approach and build a new setup around that one. Which would then be strictly analog until the pedal is hit.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This was from a couple years ago. It was setup as WDW. Dry signal going through the EVH head and center cab, wet signals going through the Powerstage 700 and outer cabs. I was using the FM9 for both amp modeling and effects so I was skipping the EVH preamp here.

Sounded absolutely epic.

View attachment 40441

Did you actually carry all that to gigs?

 

[Desertdweller]

Analog up front, digital in the loop. Always.

I agree in principle, but there are a few notable exceptions. The Strymon overdrives are digital, but are absolutely worth it in front of the amp. Also the Digitech whammy and drop pedals are all-digital and don't hurt your tone in front of an amp. The Boss OD200 is also excellent in front of the amp.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I agree in principle, but there are a few notable exceptions. The Strymon overdrives are digital, but are absolutely worth it in front of the amp. Also the Digitech whammy and drop pedals are all-digital and don't hurt your tone in front of an amp.

But at least they're all true bypass (or at least "analog bypass"), so in case you don't use them, anything digital is outta the way.

 

[la szum]

Latency is a motherfucker---especially the more you rely on feel and an immediate
tactile connection to your gear. I do believe the more A/D/A conversions you have
going on in the chain the likelihood that they could be problematic for some of us
increases. The cumulative effect of even 2 or 3 of those such conversions can be
a gamekiller. Yes, gamekiller.

I also think for others it doesn't matter. Probably determined on our playing style,
our level of proficiency (as a guy holding a note and waiting for the 30 seconds
of shimmer-verb to fade into oblivion is probably not too concerned about a
few more Milliseconds of latency). Not a slight. Just saying.

And yeah, analog dry thru is huge. For me. I don't want my entire chain experiencing
an added A/D/A conversion even when the f'ing effect is off, dammit!

 

[Sascha Franck]

Latency is a motherfucker---especially the more you rely on feel and an immediate
tactile connection to your gear. I do believe the more A/D/A conversions you have
going on in the chain the likelihood that they could be problematic for some of us
increases. The cumulative effect of even 2 or 3 of those such conversions can be
a gamekiller. Yes, gamekiller.

Fwiw, total latency of my current setup (pre-digital, digital in loop, post-digital) is still coming in at <4ms (measured by yours truly of course). Which is absolutely fine. Add to this that due to the nature of a DI setup, I'm usually closer to whatever my guitar sound is using to get to my ears (hence wedge monitors pretty close to me or IEMs), so it could in fact even sometimes be that someone using a traditional amp and a cab standing 3 meters away is experiencing more latency than me.

And fwiw, yes, I am absolutely anal about all things latency.

 

[ejecta]

To be honest, I'm not a fan of hybrid setups at the moment. On paper it reads like the best of both worlds, but in reality it's always a compromise and also includes (or possibly even highlights) the negative aspects of each. For example, I recently sold my VP4, which I had been using with my ENGL E530 preamp. It seemed like a wonderful idea at first - all the flexibility and variety of the effects and the wonderful possibilities of the 4-cable method! In reality, I didn't really utilise the supposed advantages, but was increasingly annoyed by the increase in noise and latency caused by two additional AD/DA conversions. At the moment I'm of the opinion that I prefer either entirely analogue (well, except for the speaker simulation with impulse responses, of course) or completely digital, and not a mishmash that causes problems rather than solving them.

Modeler hybrid rigs can be fun but yes it’s super annoying having to ferret out noise issues even with gear at a price point where if it’s not a ground loop hum issue, there should be no increase in the noise floor but yet here we are even with new modern modelers being sold today still having those issues.

I was all about hybrid for a while but now I’m more in your camp. If I have to go all direct I’ll just stick with all in the box. I don’t find loading a tube amp down gives super amounts of what I feel is missing especially with the modern captures and software of amps these days. If I can use an all analog front end and digital effects back ended into a real cab for a gig then that’s how I’m going to go every time because the playing experience is much more enjoyable for me. If not then it’s all in the box these days for me and I’ll just deal with it and enjoy as much as I can.

 

[Dom Mcsweeney]

I always think the acoustic latency comparison to digital latency is irrelevant really.
A few meters of acoustic latency is generally way less disruptive to playing feel compared to digital processing latency, and acoustic latency is what our ears are used to dealing with - it's natural.

AD/DA is like playing through a delay pedal on a short delay time that has no dry signal (fully wet), and the other is like playing in a room that has some nice natural ambience.

Or in other words: If you were to play guitar into an interface that was setup with a buffer of 512 or 1024 or something. it's basically like having a short delay pedal. That is never how it feels or sounds if standing several meters from an amp, of any kind.

 

[la szum]

I always think the acoustic latency comparison to digital latency is irrelevant really.
A few meters of acoustic latency is generally way less disruptive to playing feel compared to digital processing latency, and acoustic latency is what our ears are used to dealing with - it's natural.

AD/DA is like playing through a delay pedal on a short delay time that has no dry signal (fully wet), and the other is like playing in a room that has some nice natural ambience.

Or in other words: If you were to play guitar into an interface that was setup with a buffer of 512 or 1024 or something. it's basically like having a short delay pedal. That is never how it feels or sounds if standing several meters from an amp, of any kind.

Well said. When you combine them (digital and acoustic) it can be an absolute and utter nightmare.

 

[Frodebro]

I keep a JVM 205C at our other guitar player’s house where the band gets together, and run my FM9 into the direct in on the Marshall. This works well, because almost all of the presets I have for the band are based on Marshall amps anyway.

 

[djd100]

Noise issues are grounding and/or gain staging, easy to deal with and eliminate in most cases via audio and/or power iso x-formers (and rack rail isolators if racking stuff), plus proper gain staging.

I've been running hybrid setups since the ADA MP-1 and JMP-1 dropped way back in the Jurrasic age, and I've never had a problem that couldn't be inexpensively solved via the above.

 

[Frodebro]

Noise issues are grounding and/or gain staging, easy to deal with and eliminate in most cases via audio and/or power iso x-formers (and rack rail isolators if racking stuff), plus proper gain staging.

I've been running hybrid setups since the ADA MP-1 and JMP-1 dropped way back in the Jurrasic age, and I've never had a problem that couldn't be inexpensively solved via the above.

Still have my JMP-1 and 9100. Heavy as fuck, but the cool factor makes it impossible for me to get rid of them.

 

[deadpool_25]

Did you actually carry all that to gigs?

What's a gig?

 

[SillyOctpuss]

What's a gig?

It's when you get to play to the bar staff in an empty pub. There was three or four people having a quiet drink when you arrived but they left during souncheck. If you're lucky your girlfriend and some of your mates will turn up before you finish

 

[Frodebro]

It's when you get to play to the bar staff in an empty pub. There was three or four people having a quiet drink when you arrived but they left during souncheck. If you're lucky your girlfriend and some of your mates will turn up before you finish

Hey now, it’s not just about all of that glory. You also get bragging rights on gear forums.

 

[northern_fox]

Well said. When you combine them (digital and acoustic) it can be an absolute and utter nightmare.

Plus add wireless on there if you use it for another +3-4ms and you're up to a noticeable amount pretty quickly when using multiple digital fx and/or 4cms in many cases. Not quite a dealbreaker but it's getting close.

 

[HotRats]

Latency is a motherfucker---especially the more you rely on feel and an immediate
tactile connection to your gear. I do believe the more A/D/A conversions you have
going on in the chain the likelihood that they could be problematic for some of us
increases. The cumulative effect of even 2 or 3 of those such conversions can be
a gamekiller. Yes, gamekiller.

I also think for others it doesn't matter. Probably determined on our playing style,
our level of proficiency (as a guy holding a note and waiting for the 30 seconds
of shimmer-verb to fade into oblivion is probably not too concerned about a
few more Milliseconds of latency). Not a slight. Just saying.

And yeah, analog dry thru is huge. For me. I don't want my entire chain experiencing
an added A/D/A conversion even when the f'ing effect is off, dammit!

I agree.

Even if I've been comfortable playing full digital or hybrid with digital in front and in the loop, therefore double AD/DA conversion, when I went back to full analog I really enjoyed the immediacy of latency absence.

An immediacy I kinda forgot was that satisfying.

I'm not saying is a gamekiller for me but is more important thant what I thought.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I always think the acoustic latency comparison to digital latency is irrelevant really.
A few meters of acoustic latency is generally way less disruptive to playing feel compared to digital processing latency, and acoustic latency is what our ears are used to dealing with - it's natural.

AD/DA is like playing through a delay pedal on a short delay time that has no dry signal (fully wet), and the other is like playing in a room that has some nice natural ambience.

Or in other words: If you were to play guitar into an interface that was setup with a buffer of 512 or 1024 or something. it's basically like having a short delay pedal. That is never how it feels or sounds if standing several meters from an amp, of any kind.

I basically agree (and this is also why you can partially mask digital latency by adding some kinda ambience), but as usual, it totally depends. For instance, when playing open air, there's very little (if any at all) audible clues to "help you explain" the latency of your cab standing a few meters away. It's pretty much comparable to what digital latency is doing.

Besides, for almost aeons, people were never thinking about latency. Or does anyone remember any latency related discussions when it was about their Boss DD pedals (and whatever else) almost decades back? Most of them had no analog dry through, either.

As said, I'm pretty anal about latency, that's why I measure pretty much all of my guitar devices and interfaces carefully, but IMO, unless you're Steve Vai or Donald Fagen, there's always a certain point when you can just let go and accept things.

In general, it's however still clever to start with the lowest possible latency numbers as you may run into situations adding latency beyond your influence (especially live and even more so once there's some digital IEM solutions provided), which may as well tip you across a certain tolerance area (which, fwiw, is vastly different from person to person).

 

[Sascha Franck]

Even if I've been comfortable playing full digital or hybrid with digital in front and in the loop, therefore double AD/DA conversion, when I went back to full analog I really enjoyed the immediacy of latency absence.

Are you sure it was about latency?