Thinking out loud about a computer based live setup...

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw, I don't want or need to be talked out of the software side of things. Because it's the very aspect why I actually consider such a thing. I live in that DAW software realm since decades already. I've configured way more complexed things than a MIDI floor pedal controlling some hosting software. Build yourself an editor for a Roland Sound Canvas using Logic's environment (which is what I did back in the days) and you know what I'm talking about. I'm not even remotely scared about the configuration aspect, about whatever functionality and what not.

If at all, I possibly need to be talked out of certain hardware related things. And that's the very aspect where I need to gather some information.
I want my laptop on stage to be as secured as possible. No moisture, no heavy physical impacts, no issues with heat.
I want a MIDI floor controller pretty much as competent as it gets.
I need connections from that controller to the laptop that are absolutely ready to rock all the time.
Ideally that controller should fit in a rack.
I need a knob controller of some sorts, perhaps one with Mackie HUI compatibility (in an ideal world the MIDI floor controller).
I need a rack offering some elegant solutions for laptop storage and what not.

These are the relevant things I need to gather information about, ideally from some folks who have actually been using such a setup.
The software side of things is absolutely nothing to worry about, what I have in mind is almost perfect and will defenitely work super flawlessly.

 

[LP59]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I have quite a bit of experience using midi foot controllers with software amp modelers, and I've never seen a midi foot controller that can rival a purpose-built foot controller like an FC-12 for features and ease of setup. That stands to reason when you're comparing a generic solution to a dedicated one.

Again, maybe those features don't matter to you, but that doesn't make what I'm saying any less true.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I have quite a bit of experience using midi foot controllers with software amp modelers, and I've never seen a midi foot controller that can rival a purpose-built foot controller like an FC-12 for features and ease of setup. That stands to reason when you're comparing a generic solution to a dedicated one.

Again, maybe those features don't matter to you, but that doesn't make what I'm saying any less true.

No, the purpose built features can't be matched. But many others can't be achieved with proprietary systems. Heck, I can translate MIDI messages to keyboard messages and trigger keycommands or even macros in whatever software. Things such as "play these 4 bars in a cycle and create a new track that I can overdub on". Not that I'd be doing that stuff (at least not for a start), but this simply isn't possible using any hardware modeler.
Walled garden systems are walled garden systems. Excellent for anything within that walled garden, but not good for anything else.

 

[kaysersoze]

100ms is a shitload of latency, was that a typo?

Oof... yeah it was I'll correct the post. I was doing two things at once. 100 was supposed to be a response to a text I got. The highest I got was 27ms.

 

[sashimi]

Oof... yeah it was I'll correct the post. I was doing two things at once. 100 was supposed to be a response to a text I got. The highest I got was 27ms.

Right on. That’s better than 100 but still too much. I can feel anything over 15ms or so max.

 

[newholland]

i would:

a) go insane with the latency
b) go nuts when tech problems made the gig impossible.
c) never stop twiddling.

ultimately, no. just too much shit in the way for a troglodyte that knows i need ONE good tone.

why do you need everything in one box? if a drummer arrived with a 45 piece kit, i wouldnt want that either.

im just playing devils advocate, really, but its a task i woudnt undertake!

 

[FuzzyAce]

That's an entirely different sound philosophy that I absolutely respect. But with the setup I have in my mind, it's very obviously just not what I'm going for. You wouldn't tell Robert Fripp or Adrian Belew to go for an EJ approach either (and no, I'm not looking after Frippertronic sounds).

Yeah, I wasn't trying to suggest you should go that route, but also thinking out loud myself. With your situation you may need a greater diversity of tones, I get that. It's just part of me appreciates the approach players have taken where consistent gear and setup has become an extension of their signature sound over many, many years. I wish I'd been more disciplined in that respect. And it's only getting more difficult because there are way more options available these days to distract. It's a cool thing to have everything you could ever conjure up at your feet or in a laptop, but at what point does it start to play you than you play it? We all have a different breaking point though.

 

[dk_ace]

I knew two players that did this using guitar rig and the NI controller. The PC had nearly all other software removed and was only used as their rig.

I thought they were nuts. They used those rigs for years though and never had much trouble with them.

I think they were doing a few core tones and occasionally something song specific. Dan Huff helped one of them dial the core tones in for a record. He decided he wanted to just take those exact tones on the road, so since the stuff was originally built with guitar rig he built a PC to do exactly that.

It worked…

D

 

[Sascha Franck]

a) go insane with the latency

So I gather you're not using any modelers?
We're talking 4ms max here. In physical world terms, that equals 1.3 meters. Do you have your cabs mounted straight to your head and can we have a picture of that?

b) go nuts when tech problems made the gig impossible.

This can happen with any setup. I had more amps going down than digital devices during gigs. And that's what backups are for.

c) never stop twiddling.

I want to never stop twiddling.

With your situation you may need a greater diversity of tones, I get that.

No, I don't need it at all. This proposed setup is all about "want". In terms of what I need, I could've stopped around 3-4 years ago already.
So this entire thing isn't even remotely driven by real demands but purely by something that I want for fun.

It's a cool thing to have everything you could ever conjure up at your feet or in a laptop, but at what point does it start to play you than you play it?

Never. The sounds I'm getting out of that stuff inspire me to play more and they inspire me to play different things.
Have a look at your very own Sunday Ambient series. Is that following the EJ approach? Not at all. And yet you seem to be having quite some fun, plus it generates a lot of musical output. It's basically the same thing, really. Just that I'm using a guitar for things and can as well use the setup for any traditional tones as well - which, in return, will even be the best tones I ever had and super easy to deal with as I will be the one to define all the ways how I like to deal with them (global blocks included, just as one practical example).

I knew two players that did this using guitar rig and the NI controller. The PC had nearly all other software removed and was only used as their rig.

I did exactly that for one musical show and later on expanded it a bit into a hybrid setup for another musical show.
I stopped using it because a) it was only really decent in an orchestra pit, b) under very controlled musical conditions, simply because there was too little CPU juice available back then to allow for some leeway, so every patch had to be programmed per tune and I couldn't slap much "just in case" stuff in.
Later on it got a short ressurrection, I was then fooling around with a modular host (namely Energy XT, which unfortunately stopped being developed any further), but CPU power still wasn't there.
And I also used my Macbook for two gigs that came up when I wasn't expecting them, so I had to travel there from my parents home where I fortunately had my Rig Kontrol with me.

Anyhow, all of these gigs went absolutely fine. But things have been severely limited in terms of sound quality, sound choice and handling. These days, that's completely different, my actual MBA could possibly run 20 of those rigs on one single CPU core.

 

[hunter]

Done this for a while using GigPerformer and a Mac Laptop, I used a Musicomlab switcher as controller and the Axe I/O as interface.

Possibilities are endless - which also is kind of my problem (plugin nirvana is a deep hole).

There is no reason why this should not be the most powerful and most flexible thing ever. But you can get lost configuring and making sounds for sure A LOT.

Mac Mini under a pedalboard controlled by an i Pad remote would be pretty cool...

 

[Sascha Franck]

Mac Mini under a pedalboard controlled by an i Pad remote would be pretty cool...

Yeah. But Minis still have a moving fan inside, whereas MBAs are now completely without any moving parts, which I think of being a better choice in a possibly "shaky" enviromnent. Also not sure how well remote controlling would work, but in the end OS-control would only be needed for booting and starting whatever it is, remote controlling the hosting app should be easy, especially in case it'd be Mainstage, but by now I'm as well sufficiently familiar with TouchOSC to built a killer template exactly suiting my needs.

But then, if I'd go for any such a setup, I'd defenitely add a rotary controller of some sorts (I still have a BCR2000 which would be perfect but it's bulky AF), ideally something that would work wirelessly, so I could place it next to a tablet on a stand and possibly even go for some realtime uber delay mayhem tweaks and what not.

 

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw:

But you can get lost configuring and making sounds for sure A LOT.

This is actually something I want. I vastly prefer it over searching for the perfect authentic Marshall tone.

 

[Sascha Franck]

So, a very, very rough estimation of potential hardware costs:

- Used Macbook Air M2, €800. Make that an M3 (or even M4) for the same price whenever I might be ready to go that route.
- Motu M2. Works absolutely perfect. Could obviously be updated, but as it works perfectly for me already, why not? €230.
- Possibly a Nektar Pacer MIDI floor controller, seems to be an excellent piece of kit, would even allow for direct DAW control should I want to get fancy with some Ableton Live looping madness. €205.
- Two EXP pedals. Nektar has decent ones for around €18, so that's €36.
- Would like a dedicated MIDI knob box, but for a start my Arturia Minilab 3 would do just great (and offer some wicked things, I mean, it's got a MIDI keyboard, so why not?). I'll factor in €150 for whatever box, though.
- Used iPad Pro 12.9", €500 - as I plan to get one of these anyway, it doesn't have to be factored in with 100%.
- A decent rack, size tbd, add some rack caddy stuff, etc, €400.

Anything else exists already, things such as cables, a mini-mixer to deal with monitor and FOH feeds, etc. I also own all the software stuff already.

So, including the iPad, we're at €2,321 for everything. Remove the iPad (which, in case the MIDI knob box would work as supposed, might not be really needed anyway) and we're at €1,821 - less than, say, a vanilla HX Stadium plus L6 EXP pedal and whatever bag/case.

If you now forget about all the software configuration hassle (which I rather see as some true fun, seriously), that is a very, very great price for something that competent.
I mean, I'd be able to run each and every NAM capture, each and every Tonex capture, HX Native, Amplitube Max, whatever other component modeled amp sims for the core sounds.
I'd then be able to slap each thinkable (and unthinkable) routing scenarios together. No limits in terms of inserts, paths, splits, sends and what not.
I could then enhance those basic tones with incredible plugins. IR reverbs, the glorious MFM2 and Relayer Delays, the fanciest modulation devices known to mankind, ear piercing or earth shaking filters, whatever. Most of that would allow me to add fancy modulators, starting with input level to control just about any parameter, using wicked envelopes and LFOs - really, just the sky would be the limit.

So much for now. Writing all of that really makes me lust after such a setup.

Fwiw, the roadmap I currently have in mind would be to learn Mainstage pretty well (oops, I actually need to purchase that, but it's just 35) and then use my GT-1000 as a MIDI controller to see how well things would work. This will take quite a while, but I don't expect to actually get my hands (and wallet) dirty on these things earlier than mid of '26 or so, likely even later. As said, there's zero actual pressure on my end.

And very, very obviously, I will also watch how the Helix Stadium gets along. It might be something I "need" for some reasons (simply because it seems to be the perfect form factor to suit each and every situation, backpack/suitcase transportation gigs included, which was impossible with the OG Floor/LT).
And while we're at that, I mentioned it already: That proposed computer based rig unfotunately isn't a quick session grab'n'go thing at all. Yes, setup time would be extremely little, but due to its nature (rack and floor stuff), it's just not as easy to place things on a stage. This is something really annoying me already - and maybe good enough for plan B, which would be to have everything required on a floorboard and just place the Macbook anywhere else. A well padded bag would possibly be decent enough so it could be transported in the board case and also sit somewhere on stage (could actually check right now whether there'd be heat issues).

 

[MirrorProfiles]

So, a very, very rough estimation of potential hardware costs:

- Used Macbook Air M2, €800. Make that an M3 (or even M4) for the same price whenever I might be ready to go that route.
- Motu M2. Works absolutely perfect. Could obviously be updated, but as it works perfectly for me already, why not? €230.
- Possibly a Nektar Pacer MIDI floor controller, seems to be an excellent piece of kit, would even allow for direct DAW control should I want to get fancy with some Ableton Live looping madness. €205.
- Two EXP pedals. Nektar has decent ones for around €18, so that's €36.
- Would like a dedicated MIDI knob box, but for a start my Arturia Minilab 3 would do just great (and offer some wicked things, I mean, it's got a MIDI keyboard, so why not?). I'll factor in €150 for whatever box, though.
- Used iPad Pro 12.9", €500 - as I plan to get one of these anyway, it doesn't have to be factored in with 100%.
- A decent rack, size tbd, add some rack caddy stuff, etc, €400.

Anything else exists already, things such as cables, a mini-mixer to deal with monitor and FOH feeds, etc. I also own all the software stuff already.

So, including the iPad, we're at €2,321 for everything. Remove the iPad (which, in case the MIDI knob box would work as supposed, might not be really needed anyway) and we're at €1,821 - less than, say, a vanilla HX Stadium plus L6 EXP pedal and whatever bag/case.

If you now forget about all the software configuration hassle (which I rather see as some true fun, seriously), that is a very, very great price for something that competent.
I mean, I'd be able to run each and every NAM capture, each and every Tonex capture, HX Native, Amplitube Max, whatever other component modeled amp sims for the core sounds.
I'd then be able to slap each thinkable (and unthinkable) routing scenarios together. No limits in terms of inserts, paths, splits, sends and what not.
I could then enhance those basic tones with incredible plugins. IR reverbs, the glorious MFM2 and Relayer Delays, the fanciest modulation devices known to mankind, ear piercing or earth shaking filters, whatever. Most of that would allow me to add fancy modulators, starting with input level to control just about any parameter, using wicked envelopes and LFOs - really, just the sky would be the limit.

So much for now. Writing all of that really makes me lust after such a setup.

Fwiw, the roadmap I currently have in mind would be to learn Mainstage pretty well (oops, I actually need to purchase that, but it's just 35) and then use my GT-1000 as a MIDI controller to see how well things would work. This will take quite a while, but I don't expect to actually get my hands (and wallet) dirty on these things earlier than mid of '26 or so, likely even later. As said, there's zero actual pressure on my end.

And very, very obviously, I will also watch how the Helix Stadium gets along. It might be something I "need" for some reasons (simply because it seems to be the perfect form factor to suit each and every situation, backpack/suitcase transportation gigs included, which was impossible with the OG Floor/LT).
And while we're at that, I mentioned it already: That proposed computer based rig unfotunately isn't a quick session grab'n'go thing at all. Yes, setup time would be extremely little, but due to its nature (rack and floor stuff), it's just not as easy to place things on a stage. This is something really annoying me already - and maybe good enough for plan B, which would be to have everything required on a floorboard and just place the Macbook anywhere else. A well padded bag would possibly be decent enough so it could be transported in the board case and also sit somewhere on stage (could actually check right now whether there'd be heat issues).

Speaking from a position of zero experience here, but I think I’d personally just go with 2 mac mini’s for £500 each and rack everything up. That way you have a 2nd rig for redundancy in case anything goes wrong, and you can easily rack the computers and keep cable management really slick. I think the size and shape of laptops may force your hand a bit and you’re paying for all kinds of things you don’t necessarily need.

You can get rackmountable screens or cheap USB ones for 100€ or less that would at least be flexible with positioning and you could have multiple easily.

I’d also probably not recommend going this route unless you take building it really seriously, and I think that includes having 2 simultaneous rigs from the off. Trying to duplicate a rig and build in a backup down the line would suck, may as well just factor it in from day 1

 

[[Nathan]]

I’ve heard of some early nam users having these laptop rigs so some people are doing them.
To me it’s an enthusiast level solution so if you’re that way inclined then it’s a nifty thing to perfect, work out the quirks, manage and maintain. It’s an esoteric setup so it’s probably a good idea trying to find others who have done it (successfully and consistently) before you to see if there are any big gotchas or pitfalls to worry about. Anyone can run a bunch of things on a computer but it’s being dependable day to day which is what I’d want to check with others.

For me personally I’d rather just use a modeller and call it a day but to each their own.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Speaking from a position of zero experience here, but I think I’d personally just go with 2 mac mini’s for £500 each and rack everything up. That way you have a 2nd rig for redundancy in case anything goes wrong, and you can easily rack the computers and keep cable management really slick. I think the size and shape of laptops may force your hand a bit and you’re paying for all kinds of things you don’t necessarily need.

Well, as I always have my main Macbook with me, redundancy isn't an issue.
Also, as said, Minis still have a moving fan inside, whereas MBAs don't.

You can get rackmountable screens or cheap USB ones for 100€ or less that would at least be flexible with positioning and you could have multiple easily.

Yeah, I once looked around for such, it'd be no issue, but I'd need a keyboard and mouse (or trackpad) in addition, so that's quite some more stuff to take care of. And I really only need all of that for booting and starting. With an MBA it'd be: slide out of the rack caddy, boot, start programs (or make them start automatically), slide MBA back in.
Another advance being that should I need to, say, switch power outlets (which often happens when setting up), there'd be no need to restart everything. In fact, the entire setup would easily run just from the MBAs battery, for short gigs I might not even need a power outlet.

and I think that includes having 2 simultaneous rigs from the off.

As said, the computer would be backed up by default, anything else is not exactly risky. And well, in case all else fails, there's always the Stomp.
You don't have a complete second rig with you when using, say, a Helix Floor live, do you? Sure, top professionals do (but apparently not even Trev Lukather has, as Frank Richotte was asking in the german Helix group on FB whether someone could help him out), but most people only have a lesser backup rig. So do I.

It’s an esoteric setup

Nah, it's not exactly esoteric. Gazillions of keyboarders are using Mainstage for all sort of events (super top of the game professional stuff included). Just that I'm using it for guitars doesn't change much, if anything. The only advance keyboarders experience would be that they don't have to care as much about computer placement as most keyboard stands these days offer options to mount them straight on those very stands. Ok, many keyboarders don't use an external interface either, as for most live performances and virtual instrument performance the built in interface is fine on Macbooks, but once you're a little more serious, you get something decent as well.

And fwiw, add to all this another gazillion of bands using Ableton Live, well, live.

before you to see if there are any big gotchas or pitfalls to worry about.

I will just find out myself. Rest assured, before I'd ever rely on something like that, I'd have my main pedalboard with me for a bunch of gigs.

Anyone can run a bunch of things on a computer but it’s being dependable day to day which is what I’d want to check with others.

Well, I'm basically doing the same every day already. And my MBA is taxed a *whole* lot more in my homestudio environment than what would ever be the case in a dedicated live setup. I usually have several programs and gazillions of browser tabs opened, yet, once I'm inside Logic, everything performs absolutely flawless. In a live setup, I've also only install those very plugins that are absolutely trustworthy and never caused even just the slightest hickup (fortunately these days that's almost all of the ones I might be interested in).

Given how well my MBA performs these days, I really don't see much critical issues to arise.
The serious issues I can see are really related to all the other hardware involved - and ultimately perhaps resulting in me being incredibly annoyed about setting things up (which is why having everything on a pedalboard and just run the MBA outside surely is a tempting idea).

 

[hunter]

I have zero reliability doubts. Just maybe lack of sturdyness, so a good stand/table/rack to set everything up so it cannot fall down or anything would be good to have. But I think it's been years that my mac crashed. And I can only speak from GigPerformer, it's as stable as any dedicated digital hardware I ever used. It has a very thorough plugin check routine, and some plugs actually fail it and cannot be used. But that might be why it's so reliable.
I know that many keyboarders use that kind of stuff on live shows regularly, so no reason at all why it should be different for guitar players.

 

[dws2384]

I’ve done it. Gig performer is rock solid. Keys guys have been doing it this way for years. Valhalla plugins don’t add additional latency, Tonex is low, NAM is also latency free IIRC. I used an RME babyfacepro, pretty similar latency to what I’d get with any modeller.

 

[FuzzyAce]

No, I don't need it at all. This proposed setup is all about "want". In terms of what I need, I could've stopped around 3-4 years ago already.
So this entire thing isn't even remotely driven by real demands but purely by something that I want for fun.

Totally respect that.

Have a look at your very own Sunday Ambient series. Is that following the EJ approach? Not at all. And yet you seem to be having quite some fun, plus it generates a lot of musical output. It's basically the same thing, really.

Not really the same, since I'd never venture to do that kind of stuff in a live setting... and don't even tempt me to try.
It could be done in some kind of crazy looper style setup way with a whole bunch of filter effects, etc, etc. but it would take away from what makes it fun for me currently -- the whole methodology and recording aspect of it all fills a creative need in me. So trying to capture that intimate process for a live audience would make it something totally different and not something I'd be in the mindset to do. Guitar-based stuff I treat completely different though.