Thinking out loud about a computer based live setup...

[laxu]

Well, as I always have my main Macbook with me, redundancy isn't an issue.
Also, as said, Minis still have a moving fan inside, whereas MBAs don't.

IMO having fans is a plus. It's not like Mac fans are that loud on the M-series machines and it would be a good fallback to avoid any throttling or cramped quarters issues.

Mac Minis don't make too much sense to me in this scenario when you would still want a display, keyboard and mouse to use if needed. Sure, you could use portable USB monitors and a BT mouse/trackpad, but at that point...why not just use what is built into the laptop?

iPad is not going to work that well for controlling MacOS, it's built more as a "use the iPad as an extra screen" where you can do almost fuck all with the touchscreen itself.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Are you going to be working in a more solo performance gig situation now?

No, at least not really. I have a little low profile duo with a bass player, but in that setting I prefer to keep all tech stuff minimal (apart from using the extremely simple looper of my rusty Zoom G3 here and there).

I assumed you meant for the band gigs

I would as well use that setup for band gigs (simply because it'd just be a killer sounding setup, better than anything I've ever used before), but as said, there's absolutely no necessity to improve anything there, my current setup would suit me for absolutely anything I'd ever been asked to deliver. As said, this is all about "want", not "need".

 

[Sascha Franck]

IMO having fans is a plus. It's not like Mac fans are that loud on the M-series machines and it would be a good fallback to avoid any throttling or cramped quarters issues.

Fans can fail. And in case they do, it's game over. So no fans is a plus for me. I'm never experiencing any throttling, either, simply because that MBA has an insane amount of CPU headroom for anything I could ever think of. I just tried, it's even 4 fully maxed instances of HXN that I can run on one single realtime thread.

Mac Minis don't make too much sense to me in this scenario when you would still want a display, keyboard and mouse to use if needed. Sure, you could use portable USB monitors and a BT mouse/trackpad, but at that point...why not just use what is built into the laptop?

Exactly. And when you calculate the extra cost and extra hassle, those additional, say, 3-400 Euros pay of pretty quickly.

iPad is not going to work that well for controlling MacOS, it's built more as a "use the iPad as an extra screen" where you can do almost fuck all with the touchscreen itself.

Yeah. I'd really only use it as a Mainstage remote control or for running TouchOSC. Or maybe for some funny gesture fun in the more distant future.

 

[dk_ace]

So I gather you're not using any modelers?
We're talking 4ms max here. In physical world terms, that equals 1.3 meters. Do you have your cabs mounted straight to your head and can we have a picture of that?



This can happen with any setup. I had more amps going down than digital devices during gigs. And that's what backups are for.



I want to never stop twiddling.



No, I don't need it at all. This proposed setup is all about "want". In terms of what I need, I could've stopped around 3-4 years ago already.
So this entire thing isn't even remotely driven by real demands but purely by something that I want for fun.



Never. The sounds I'm getting out of that stuff inspire me to play more and they inspire me to play different things.
Have a look at your very own Sunday Ambient series. Is that following the EJ approach? Not at all. And yet you seem to be having quite some fun, plus it generates a lot of musical output. It's basically the same thing, really. Just that I'm using a guitar for things and can as well use the setup for any traditional tones as well - which, in return, will even be the best tones I ever had and super easy to deal with as I will be the one to define all the ways how I like to deal with them (global blocks included, just as one practical example).



I did exactly that for one musical show and later on expanded it a bit into a hybrid setup for another musical show.
I stopped using it because a) it was only really decent in an orchestra pit, b) under very controlled musical conditions, simply because there was too little CPU juice available back then to allow for some leeway, so every patch had to be programmed per tune and I couldn't slap much "just in case" stuff in.
Later on it got a short ressurrection, I was then fooling around with a modular host (namely Energy XT, which unfortunately stopped being developed any further), but CPU power still wasn't there.
And I also used my Macbook for two gigs that came up when I wasn't expecting them, so I had to travel there from my parents home where I fortunately had my Rig Kontrol with me.

Anyhow, all of these gigs went absolutely fine. But things have been severely limited in terms of sound quality, sound choice and handling. These days, that's completely different, my actual MBA could possibly run 20 of those rigs on one single CPU core.

Yeah the NI rig tonally wasn’t anything that wowed me. It sounded fine, nothing remarkable but it was definitely a good tone. They were always really stoked about how it sounded which is all that matters.

D

 

[Tito83]

I was thinking a lot about this a few weeks back. Mini PC's became quite powerful these days, not only Mac's - but I understand why go with it. The idea of using multiple plugins is a very very cool one, but for me at least quite hard to make it all gig ready as far as programming goes. If I was going to be stuck with a single plugin, I might just stick with a hardware modeler.


Then I found this:



I mean, tone wise this is really close to everything one might ever want, including the Jam Origin midi stuff makes it even more over the top. Programming seems like a nightmare.

If anyone is into gaming, Steam released the Stream OS, which can be installed on different portable hardware. I imagined someone could release a Gig OS, designed to be installed on these mini pcs and make the whole process a bit easier, with faster boosts, free of bloatware, optimized for audio and more reliable. The goal would be to create a certain standard of operation to facilitate integration. If maybe this gets popular enough, it might put enough pressure on plugin developers to follow the set standard. Starting with a store might be a stretch if not done by a big company, but I could see it being monetized by having a store selling verified plugins. All the installation and authentication handled for you. Just like Steam OS, you buy and play.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I was thinking a lot about this a few weeks back. Mini PC's became quite powerful these days, not only Mac's - but I understand why go with it. The idea of using multiple plugins is a very very cool one, but for me at least quite hard to make it all gig ready as far as programming goes. If I was going to be stuck with a single plugin, I might just stick with a hardware modeler.


Then I found this:



I mean, tone wise this is really close to everything one might ever want, including the Jam Origin midi stuff makes it even more over the top. Programming seems like a nightmare.

If anyone is into gaming, Steam released the Stream OS, which can be installed on different portable hardware. I imagined someone could release a Gig OS, designed to be installed on these mini pcs and make the whole process a bit easier, with faster boosts, free of bloatware, optimized for audio and more reliable. The goal would be to create a certain standard of operation to facilitate integration. If maybe this gets popular enough, it might put enough pressure on plugin developers to follow the set standard. Starting with a store might be a stretch if not done by a big company, but I could see it being monetized by having a store selling verified plugins. All the installation and authentication handled for you. Just like Steam OS, you buy and play.

I was literally going to dig up and post this exact video. I love the concept and the execution but when he dives into the programming is when I check right out!

 

[Sascha Franck]

Then I found this:

Great idea but a nightmare to set up.

 

[GuitarVST]

A great thread. I'm interested in seeing what hardware solutions will Sascha come up with.

How do you plan to deal with latency? Buy a RME audio interface?

If your interface supports it, you can run Gig Performer with 16 samples of buffer, which means 0.3 ms of latency (round-trip under 1 ms).
Igor Paspalj uses Gig Performer with 32 samples, and that is 4% of CPU usage when he plays his masterpiece Full Throttle.

What about on-the-fly control?

With the rackspace mechanism, you can run long plugin chains, detune your guitar, use completely different amp sims in parallel, instantly. Zero delay. Here is an example.

When using Mainstage, it's as well possible to use an iPad as a remote control

Just to add: you can use anything to control Gig Performer, tablet, smartphone, even a Web browser on any device. (with MIDI, OSC, AVB, ...)

I just *love* a single pedalboard to do everything. Gigging life doesn't get any easier.

You can stick any small form computer onto the pedalboard. Mini PCs, small Windows tablets, Octave device, even a gaming device such as ASUS Rog Ally.

Assuming you're serious: scribble strips, tuner, auto-engage, LED colors, mini display, update on preset load, tap tempo, control over the inevitable functions that don't have midi support, response curves, hold functions, etc. The list of things that are impossible or difficult with midi is pretty long.

Actually, things that you can do with MIDI and Gig Performer is impressive.



Not to mention that you also have the Tuner, six different Tap Tempo mechanisms to perfectly match your personal feel, custom scaling curves, LED widgets, ... ... ...

Artists like Jon Gomm, Trey Gunn, or heavy metal artists such as Chris Broderick or Karl Sanders use Gig Performer.

Only because I don't like the aesthetics of a laptop on a laptop stand next to me on stage.

This is how it is suppose to be: laptop in the center, loud and proud! :)

 

[AutomationBias]

For years, John McLaughlin's live rig was a G4 laptop running Amplitude and Logic. If that guy can play through a laptop, I don't think you should have any real concerns about latency.

 

[Sascha Franck]

If your interface supports it, you can run Gig Performer with 16 samples of buffer, which means 0.3 ms of latency (round-trip under 1 ms).

The RTL depends on quite some more things than the buffer size you set manually. There's converter latency, safety buffers and perhaps some further on-interface processing involved. That's why latency numbers between different interfaces vary greatly (and we're talking about several ms here).

 

[Sascha Franck]

For years, John McLaughlin's live rig was a G4 laptop running Amplitude and Logic. If that guy can play through a laptop, I don't think you should have any real concerns about latency.

I've seen him with that setup, a trio with Dennis Chambers and Joey DeFrancesco. Guitar sound was pretty bad (latency likely was ok, but obviously I don't know about the guy's tolerance). Unfortunately, it has been a pretty bad gig as a whole, too.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I'm interested in seeing what hardware solutions will Sascha come up with.

As said before, it'll take quite a while until I decide whether I'll really be going that route at all, and once I decided, it'll likely take another while for an actual setup (that goes beyond being a home experiment) to materialize.
And in case I might decide to get a Helix Stadium as my next rig, it'll be delayed yet some more.

 

[quadgear]

If your interface supports it, you can run Gig Performer with 16 samples of buffer, which means 0.3 ms of latency (round-trip under 1 ms).

I'd love to see that latency measured with a split signal.

As much as I wish it were that low, I think you'll find it's significantly higher in practice.

The "under 1ms" latency is just one part of the total, round trip latency. This is just the buffer latency which happens to be easy to calculate, is often displayed in DAWs, but is incomplete. There is more to latency than the input and output buffer.

 

[dignlivn]

I'm having a hard time following this thread.
Guess I'm too old

 

[Sascha Franck]

Re: Latency

Given you buy a decent interface, roundtrip latencies of <4ms with a fully loaded setup are easy to achieve without breaking the bank.
If you feel like spending a little more and buy a computer powerful enough so you could run things at 96kHz and add an RME interface to the picture, you'd be in the 2ms realm, possibly even a bit below. Every bit as good as any of the hardware modeling flagships (in fact, only the Boss GT-1000 does significantly better for whatever reasons).

As said before, with my pretty affordable Motu M2, I can get 3.5ms RTL perfectly stable.

IMO, if you can keep things stable at <5ms, that'd be absolutely fine - at least as long as you don't add much things such as digital wireless stuff (which may introduce as much latency) or run through older digital mixers and monitoring systems.

 

[GuitarVST]

The RTL depends on quite some more things

I agree 100% (with the whole post)

There is also the reported latency (by an interface) and actual latency - Gig Performer includes the Latency Measurement Tool to see the actual round-trip latency.

Also note that producers use Gig Performer with their DAW of choice for zero-latency tracking. DECAP is an example.

Guess I'm too old

Hey, that is not an excuse! :)

The keyboardist of Weird Al Yankovic, Ruben (70 years old), recently switched to Gig Performer and is performing with Gig Performer filling the stadiums across the US.




As for the footprint, here is Gig Performer running on a postcard-sized embedded touchscreen Windows “box”.

 

[Sascha Franck]

As for the footprint, here is Gig Performer running on a postcard-sized embedded touchscreen Windows “box”.

What computer is that?

 

[mbenigni]

Lest we forget:

Computer Effects CE1

Computer Effects CE1 is a fully-featured audio workstation that integrates a powerful Windows computer with professional 4/4 audio interfaces and MIDI controllers. Our innovative design seamlessly combines these components into a portable, rugged device with rich interfaces, greatly enhancing...

paintaudio.com

The perfect solution in theory, though no one can vouch for reliability, etc.

I haven't read the entire thread, but I think for a serious gigging player (like Sascha) the best answer is going to be a combination of a purpose-built guitar MFX (Helix or QC) and a Windows tablet or iPad (depending on specific software requirements.) Connect the two via USB, leverage the audio I/O, footswitches, etc. that the guitar product brings to the table, build presets on both devices, done. And if you do it right (the preset programming, specifically), you can disconnect the computer/tablet when you don't need it, and the core guitar functionality will still work fine.

This could address everything from advanced looping to MIDI Guitar. And one of Sascha's primary concerns: global effects - run everything preset specific on the MFX box, and everything global as VST/AU on the computer/iPad (depending.)

(And if this sounds too expensive: Helix LT and iPad would be about $1K these days.)

I know it's not very portable, and there's a lot of redundancy, but every time I try to reduce this solution to "capable computer/tablet + adequate audio I/O + foot controller", I come up short on the last two. I've been trying to find a good USB foot controller with integrated audio for about 20 years. (Although, now that MIDI Guitar 3 is capable of loading NAM profiles, I'm starting to think about this again.)

 

[mbenigni]

So, a very, very rough estimation of potential hardware costs:

- Used Macbook Air M2, €800. Make that an M3 (or even M4) for the same price whenever I might be ready to go that route.
- Motu M2. Works absolutely perfect. Could obviously be updated, but as it works perfectly for me already, why not? €230.
- Possibly a Nektar Pacer MIDI floor controller, seems to be an excellent piece of kit, would even allow for direct DAW control should I want to get fancy with some Ableton Live looping madness. €205.
- Two EXP pedals. Nektar has decent ones for around €18, so that's €36.
- Would like a dedicated MIDI knob box, but for a start my Arturia Minilab 3 would do just great (and offer some wicked things, I mean, it's got a MIDI keyboard, so why not?). I'll factor in €150 for whatever box, though.
- Used iPad Pro 12.9", €500 - as I plan to get one of these anyway, it doesn't have to be factored in with 100%.
- A decent rack, size tbd, add some rack caddy stuff, etc, €400.

Anything else exists already, things such as cables, a mini-mixer to deal with monitor and FOH feeds, etc. I also own all the software stuff already.

So, including the iPad, we're at €2,321 for everything. Remove the iPad (which, in case the MIDI knob box would work as supposed, might not be really needed anyway) and we're at €1,821 - less than, say, a vanilla HX Stadium plus L6 EXP pedal and whatever bag/case.

Ignore my concerns about cost or complexity LOL.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Lest we forget:

Computer Effects CE1

Computer Effects CE1 is a fully-featured audio workstation that integrates a powerful Windows computer with professional 4/4 audio interfaces and MIDI controllers. Our innovative design seamlessly combines these components into a portable, rugged device with rich interfaces, greatly enhancing...

paintaudio.com

The perfect solution in theory, though no one can vouch for reliability, etc.

Would never buy a product without any detailed audio interface specs available.

the best answer is going to be a combination of a purpose-built guitar MFX (Helix or QC) and a Windows tablet or iPad (depending on specific software requirements.) Connect the two via USB, leverage the audio I/O, footswitches, etc. that the guitar product brings to the table, build presets on both devices, done. And if you do it right (the preset programming, specifically), you can disconnect the computer/tablet when you don't need it, and the core guitar functionality will still work fine.

Well, this would only allow to run mix effects (hence things such as delays or reverbs) as the latency would not be great (read: completely inacceptable) for anything 100% wet. Otherwise I'd need an additional audio interface in addition, which would add even more complexity as in my proposed setup.
And fwiw, I have already been playing 2 gigs (where I was allowed to go a little crazy) quite some years back, using my rusty Zoom G3 (which works as an audio interface as well) to feed my (as rusty) plastic Macbook to mix in some wild spatial effects. Worked quite well and I was considering to use it as a delay/verb only processor for a while, but ultimately it wasn't worth it.

I've been trying to find a good USB foot controller with integrated audio for about 20 years.

I don't think there's any. At least not any delivering truly low latency numbers. But then, seriously, mounting an interface below any typical pedalboard frame isn't much of an issue. And well, by now I'm actually thinking that this might be the best solution anyway. Have everything but the laptop on a pedalboard (within a case already, hence exactly what I'm using all the time anyway) and then just connect the laptop via some sufficiently long (and ideally somewhat secured) USB cable. No further PSU for the laptop needed anymore, PD works absolutely well on most docks - and the dock itself could sit below the pedalboard as well.