Hybrid Rig Setups!

[Baba]

I might be a little more sensitive to latency, than I've ever cared to measure or dig into.

Interestingly enough, when I play my HX devices, standalone, using only modeling, even with just headphones or IEMs, there's something in my fingers that just doesn't feel "right". I'm not sure that's latency though.

Conversely, if I use those same devices, either in 4cm or in front of an amp, (tube or analog/ss), I don't have that same feeling, and don't have to exert as much "effort" to play, than if I were just using modeling and nothing else.

 

[Desertdweller]

View attachment 40504

Your background is the shot of my Mark III I took last year, awesome!

 

[Bladester]

Your background is the shot of my Mark III I took last year, awesome!

I use it also. Thanks

 

[Mikael Dez]

Your background is the shot of my Mark III I took last year, awesome!

I knew I got it on this forum and I forgot where lol - awesome picture dude

 

[aivoryuk]

I need to do some cable management but this is my hybrid system.
Analog Pedalboard ->synergy -> fryette power station -> fractal FM3

 

[laxu]

I need to do some cable management but this is my hybrid system.
Analog Pedalboard ->synergy -> fryette power station -> fractal FM3

So realistically, what's better about the Synergy setup vs just using FM3 -> Fryette?

 

[djd100]

So realistically, what's better about the Synergy setup vs just using FM3 -> Fryette?

You cannot get "realer" than the real thing, but "better" is totally subjective.

 

[aivoryuk]

So realistically, what's better about the Synergy setup vs just using FM3 -> Fryette?

The FM3 is a fantastic bit of kit - but when I’ve done a/b comparisons with the real setup - the fm3 doesn’t sound as open. Like some box mid frequencies etc.

The real setup works with all well captured IR’s - I don’t feel the need to notch anything out.
Psychologically there are no updates and that is a big hurdle.

Could I live with just the FM3? Absolutely

 

[la szum]

If I have enough latency, I will break strings.

Not with digital gear, but for the occasional, playing-outside-far-away-from-my-amps-using-a-wireless, (it's fucking awesome! I have these woods behind me, and the guitar reverberates through the trees!) I tend to dig in to compensate, knowing full well what the issue is.

The first time I played on a big stage and had less than stellar monitoring it ruined me. I
was utterly lost the whole gig. Late. Early. Overcompensating.

I learned then that placement of monitoring is MASSIVE when you have that much room.

And that you also need a more guitars in the Drummer's Monitor Mix than on a smaller/tighter
stage.

That show was brutal, and we were SO excited beforehand. Just green and unprepared for the reality
of it.

Oh, nice upgrade on the Pic.

 

[TSJMajesty]

The first time I played on a big stage and had less than stellar monitoring it ruined me. I
was utterly lost the whole gig. Late. Early. Overcompensating.

Wow! I can imagine how that would mess with your playing!! I'd be constantly trying to play faster/harder.

Then I'd probably be like, "Where's my amp? I gotta go get close to my amp!"

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Currently in my mancave, KPA profiles of the preamp of this amp: (captured via the fx loop)

Into the return of these 2:

Live I use the QC, running captures of the same preamp into (whatever) combos I bring…or in 4cm with the Dumble clone.
What is an interesting observation in 4cm: wether I use the capture or the actual preamp…don’t matter to me at all.

My usual mancave setup is this (with a cab not in the picture on the other side of the room)
Same preampcaptures into an Engl 2x50 el 84 powersection.

So I use digital preamps instead of full models into tube power/cab…I can’t imagine ever going back on that tbh.
If you have the gear to try it…highly recommended!

 

[Eagle]

Currently in my mancave, KPA profiles of the preamp of this amp: (captured via the fx loop)
View attachment 40829

Into the return of these 2:
View attachment 40828

Live I use the QC, running captures of the same preamp into (whatever) combos I bring…or in 4cm with the Dumble clone.
What is an interesting observation in 4cm: wether I use the capture or the actual preamp…don’t matter to me at all.

My usual mancave setup is this (with a cab not in the picture on the other side of the room)
Same preampcaptures into an Engl 2x50 el 84 powersection.
View attachment 40831

So I use digital preamps instead of full models into tube power/cab…I can’t imagine ever going back on that tbh.
If you have the gear to try it…highly recommended!

I have done this but then I added a Soldano X88ir in front and it really added to the dynamic feel and attack. I swap between all digital and all tube all analog and everything in between. They all sound great but if you have any digital in your dry signal at all you can always tell in an AB test. For practical purposes I tend to use power amp sims and IRs amplified with a tube amp in to "FRFR" cabs and the X88ir. The power amp sim gives it the compliance of volume without having to play loud. I still use the tube power because it sounds better than anything else I have ever used but I still have a couple of Matrix GT1000fx amps spare.
My least favourite is 4 CM with Axe 3 because of the loss of attack. The best sounding way to use my gear is WDW with full analog dry VHT Soldano mesa dry and Axe matrix wet "FRFR" cabs . Used with a fully true bypass analog front end . Once you use that everything else is a compromise.

 

[EOengineer]

Currently in my mancave, KPA profiles of the preamp of this amp: (captured via the fx loop)
View attachment 40829

Into the return of these 2:
View attachment 40828

Live I use the QC, running captures of the same preamp into (whatever) combos I bring…or in 4cm with the Dumble clone.
What is an interesting observation in 4cm: wether I use the capture or the actual preamp…don’t matter to me at all.

My usual mancave setup is this (with a cab not in the picture on the other side of the room)
Same preampcaptures into an Engl 2x50 el 84 powersection.
View attachment 40831

So I use digital preamps instead of full models into tube power/cab…I can’t imagine ever going back on that tbh.
If you have the gear to try it…highly recommended!

This lines up with unscientific preliminary experiments I’ve done running Tonex captures of a Mesa Studio Preamp through the power amp of a Mesa Mark III.

For the tones I was using, I was surprised how authentic the rig sounded using the preamp captures. There were some things happening with levels that made it difficult to directly compare but I intend to circle back and explore this more.

Similarly, I’ve also experienced surprising results running the Helix Mark IV preamp model into a Mesa Simul 2:90. It was like there wasn’t a tell that it was a hybrid rig.

 

[Eagle]

If you add wool to the attack with gain or fx the difference diminishes. It’s only the player that can tell anyhow these days.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

This lines up with unscientific preliminary experiments I’ve done running Tonex captures of a Mesa Studio Preamp through the power amp of a Mesa Mark III.

For the tones I was using, I was surprised how authentic the rig sounded using the preamp captures. There were some things happening with levels that made it difficult to directly compare but I intend to circle back and explore this more.

Similarly, I’ve also experienced surprising results running the Helix Mark IV preamp model into a Mesa Simul 2:90. It was like there wasn’t a tell that it was a hybrid rig.

Yeah…to me it has closed the book regarding sonic differences between digital/analog. In short..perfect match if you either compare a “record/foh” signal that included mic and cab, or restrict the digital amp component to being the preamp, which you feed into poweramp/cab.

Cause of it, im brewing on changing my setup for gigs to have the cabsim handeld after the poweramp (amp with IR or IR loader that handles speaker level). Currently I feed foh with a seperate path with cabsim from the modeler, but thats a bit cumbersum cause I have to compensate for the missing poweramp (in the digital unit) somehow.

 

[HomespunEffects]

… Not to mention my other guitar player runs straight into a DSL40C (mine is the CR) and his tone is not my favorite so I'm a little gun shy.

It’s the speaker and open back.

 

[JiveTurkey]

This lines up with unscientific preliminary experiments I’ve done running Tonex captures of a Mesa Studio Preamp through the power amp of a Mesa Mark III.

For the tones I was using, I was surprised how authentic the rig sounded using the preamp captures. There were some things happening with levels that made it difficult to directly compare but I intend to circle back and explore this more.

Similarly, I’ve also experienced surprising results running the Helix Mark IV preamp model into a Mesa Simul 2:90. It was like there wasn’t a tell that it was a hybrid rig.

The Studio Preamp is a perfect piece and one that using a captured facsimile of with nothing of comparable value to adjust would drive me bonkers.

...cause I have to compensate for the missing poweramp (in the digital unit) somehow.

This to me is the final frontier with these hybrid setups. I wish modeling manufacturers would have a better solution for this. I know this is Orvillain's thread (ducks) but the Kemper solution (Monitor Cabinet Out iirc) is spectacular for this "problem".

I messed with this in my FM9 last week and had to duplicate my blocks on two paths. Then assign footswitches to control each block x 2. And account for the nuttiness that is Mesa power amp mode differences which result in a HUGE level discrepancies between them.

 

[metropolis_4]

The first time I played on a big stage and had less than stellar monitoring it ruined me. I
was utterly lost the whole gig. Late. Early. Overcompensating.

I learned then that placement of monitoring is MASSIVE when you have that much room.

And that you also need a more guitars in the Drummer's Monitor Mix than on a smaller/tighter
stage.

That show was brutal, and we were SO excited beforehand. Just green and unprepared for the reality
of it.

Oh, nice upgrade on the Pic.

This gave me flashbacks, I’ve been there!

I think big stages like that are where IEMs are the most helpful because wherever you are on stage it brings all your monitoring right to your ears, so distance becomes a non-issue

This to me is the final frontier with these hybrid setups. I wish modeling manufacturers would have a better solution for this. I know this is Orvillain's thread (ducks) but the Kemper solution (Monitor Cabinet Out iirc) is spectacular for this "problem".

I messed with this in my FM9 last week and had to duplicate my blocks on two paths. Then assign footswitches to control each block x 2. And account for the nuttiness that is Mesa power amp mode differences which result in a HUGE level discrepancies between them.

I think this is why hybrid rigs have never worked for me. The missing power amp interaction just makes everything feel wrong

 

[laxu]

The Studio Preamp is a perfect piece and one that using a captured facsimile of with nothing of comparable value to adjust would drive me bonkers.

This to me is the final frontier with these hybrid setups. I wish modeling manufacturers would have a better solution for this. I know this is Orvillain's thread (ducks) but the Kemper solution (Monitor Cabinet Out iirc) is spectacular for this "problem".

What does the Kemper do differently for this?

 

[EOengineer]

The Studio Preamp is a perfect piece and one that using a captured facsimile of with nothing of comparable value to adjust would drive me bonkers.

I personally get a chuckle from the ketchup-on-filet-mignon factor.

Exploring this option is rooted in playing to the strengths of each technology and possibly sidestepping some of the limitations.

The Studio Preamp is a tonal treasure trove but for the most part you can only get one tone at a time. It is the hardest to balance the clean and dirty tones out of any of the Mark series circuits I’ve experienced. Plus there are mid gain tones in there that I love.

IMO this is a textbook scenario where capture tech can shine. Let me capture my clean, edge of breakup, mid gain, crunch, and lead tones.

Whether or not it’s possible - not sure yet. Worth exploring IMO.