Thinking out loud about a computer based live setup...

[Sedaxel]

I don't think there's any. At least not any delivering truly low latency numbers.

There is the Melo Audio ToneShifter Mega (or Harley Benton PM500, IIRC). And the Xsonic Xtone.

I had both, and got rid of them too.

They are "standard" audio interfaces (marketed as high quality 192kHz yadda yadda... BS). They are not very good sounding nor especially quiet. One of them recorded strange wave figures, and the other was noisy.

I know there´s no need to say this, but stay away from them.

 

[mbenigni]

Would never buy a product without any detailed audio interface specs available.

Not without a good return policy. If this specific item were on Amazon, I might have tried one by now. But I'm not brave enough to buy direct from Paint Audio.

Well, this would only allow to run mix effects (hence things such as delays or reverbs) as the latency would not be great (read: completely inacceptable) for anything 100% wet.

Well, this is kind of the point of a hybrid solution: you keep your timing/fidelity-dependent signal paths inside the (for instance) Helix, and only route out to computer/tablet processing where you know slight latency won't hurt (e.g. time-based effects, pitch-to-MIDI, etc.)

Otherwise I'd need an additional audio interface in addition, which would add even more complexity as in my proposed setup.

No, the entire point here is that the Helix (or whatever guitar-specific product you choose) is class compliant. You'd connect it directly to your computer or iPad with a single USB cable for bidirectional MIDI and multi-channel audio.

And fwiw, I have already been playing 2 gigs (where I was allowed to go a little crazy) quite some years back, using my rusty Zoom G3 (which works as an audio interface as well) to feed my (as rusty) plastic Macbook to mix in some wild spatial effects. Worked quite well and I was considering to use it as a delay/verb only processor for a while, but ultimately it wasn't worth it.

Whether it's worth it or not is where you have to begin. If having a MacBook on stage wasn't worth it, then I may have lost the plot here. :)

 

[mbenigni]

There is the Melo Audio ToneShifter Mega (or Harley Benton PM500, IIRC). And the Xsonic Xtone.

I had both, and got rid of them too.

They are "standard" audio interfaces (marketed as high quality 192kHz yadda yadda... BS). They are not very good sounding nor especially quiet. One of them recorded strange wave figures, and the other was noisy.

I know there´s no need to say this, but stay away from them.

The MeloAudio stuff (including the MIDI-only MIDI Commander) was awful. I see they're no longer available on Amazon; probably no longer in production. Good riddance.

Loudest switches since the also terrible Native instruments RK4. At least the RK4 had a decent audio interface built in. (I had such high hopes... sigh.)

 

[Sascha Franck]

I know there´s no need to say this, but stay away from them.

If this setup would ever materialize, the most important thing would be getting an audio interface with super tried and trusted drivers and lowest latency figures. That automatically rules out any of those slapped on things.

Well, this is kind of the point of a hybrid solution: you keep your timing/fidelity-dependent signal paths inside the (for instance) Helix, and only route out to computer/tablet processing where you know slight latency won't hurt (e.g. time-based effects, pitch-to-MIDI, etc.)

Yeah, but that's precisely what I don't want. I mean, I want to run NAM, Tonex, AT, HXN and whatever other 100% wet FX. In fact, that's the entire purpose to start with such a setup.

No, the entire point here is that the Helix (or whatever guitar-specific product you choose) is class compliant. You'd connect it directly to your computer or iPad with a single USB cable for bidirectional MIDI and multi-channel audio.

Sure. But see above. Only suitable for mixed in FX.

If having a MacBook on stage wasn't worth it, then I may have lost the plot here. :)

Again: see above. It wasn't worth it because I could only use it for mixed in FX.

 

[mbenigni]

Yeah, but that's precisely what I don't want. I mean, I want to run NAM, Tonex, AT, HXN and whatever other 100% wet FX. In fact, that's the entire purpose to start with such a setup.

It sounds like the entire concern boils down to the assumption that latency in class-compliant audio interfaces in all available guitar MFX devices is too high? I don't know whether this is true or not (or what your tolerance is versus my own.)

So, MOTU M2 and Nektar Pacer, all processing on a MacBook Air, iPad Pro, etc. for control surface... This would be too complicated and costly for my tastes. I'd rather take the MacBook out of the equation and aim to do all my processing on the iPad. (There are some great AU hosts available now.) But with your mention of Ableton Live, etc, I can see we're kind of blurring the line between a portable performance rig and a studio configuration here.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It sounds like the entire concern boils down to the assumption that latency in class-compliant audio interfaces in all available guitar MFX devices is too high?

It is. For me at least. I want RTL to stay <5ms at all cost, even when adding plugins coming with some samples of their own latency. No class compliant interface without dedicated drivers could do that. They're not even close (the best values might be in the 7-8ms range).

Whether I could as well live with something a bit higher can be debated, but it's completely beyond the point already. If I'm going to spend that much money, the last thing I want to run into is the system's latency becoming an issue at any point in time. And that might be the case if it was around 7ms, because the additional latency of, say, an older digitall IEM console might send me over the tipping point whereas there'd be some leeway for these things to happen when I started with less.

So, MOTU M2 and Nektar Pacer, all processing on a MacBook Air, iPad Pro, etc. for control surface... This would be too complicated and costly for my tastes.

"Complicated" is in the eye of the beholder. As said before, for me, slapping this together and configuring it would be pure fun. And yes, I'm absolutely serious about that.

As far as costly goes, well, this would be a *much* more powerful, flexible and "ready for adventures" setup than what each and every modeler in existance would be able to provide, the largest incarnation of the Axe FX III included.

 

[mbenigni]

It is. For me at least. I want RTL to stay <5ms at all cost, even when adding plugins coming with some samples of their own latency. No class compliant interface without dedicated drivers could do that. They're not even close (the best values might be in the 7-8ms range).

Gotcha. So this rules out processing on an iPad altogether as well.

"Complicated" is in the eye of the beholder. As said before, for me, slapping this together and configuring it would be pure fun. And yes, I'm absolutely serious about that.

I actually feel the same way. Getting complex rigs working at the onset is a hobby of mine. (Sometimes more so than actually doing anything useful with them.) The trouble usually comes down the line, where making ongoing adjustments to presets, etc. tends to be more difficult than on a simpler system (e.g. a single monolithic modeler/MFX unit.) But perhaps YMMV given your ideas for additional MIDI encoders, etc.

P.S. Again with the slapping!

 

[Whizzinby]

 

[mbenigni]

Come on, Whizzinby. "Computer-based Live Setup Wars". You know you wanna do it!

 

[Sascha Franck]

The trouble usually comes down the line, where making ongoing adjustments to presets, etc. tends to be more difficult than on a simpler system

Oh, quite defenitely. But then, if I ever go for such a system and use it for regular gigs, I'd defenitely make sure that dealing with sounds would be as easy as it would be on a dedicated unit. In fact, it'd likely be even easier as things such as global blocks would be built in straight from the start. I'd likely come up with a solution of all relevant parameters I usually tweak during soundchecks (or sometimes inmidst of a gig) mapped to a knob controller (16 encoders would likely be absolutely sufficient) and call it a day for such gigs.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Btw, one of the issues I'd really feel uncomfortable with would be leaving any laptop on stage unattended, at least when placed close to any rather typical guitarist's location (hence at least not way in the back, sometimes pretty much upfront). Sure, these days it's not much of an issue to simply shut it down and grab it, then take it with you - but it's yet another thing to deal with.

 

[GuitarVST]

What computer is that?

See here: https://community.gigperformer.com/t/chris-ault-top-shelf-band/24481

Here you can find the price, photos and the interview with a gigging musician that uses this Chris Ault.

To see the list of some guitar, bass, MIDI guitar, Chapman stick players and their gigging setups, built around Gig Performer, and tagged by genres, see here: https://community.gigperformer.com/t/index-of-guitarists-and-bassists/21905

Many of these artists are interviewed (the Backstage with Gig Performer show), so that you can see their live setups and experience in detail.

 

[Sedaxel]

See here: https://community.gigperformer.com/t/chris-ault-top-shelf-band/24481

Here you can find the price, photos and the interview with a gigging musician that uses this Chris Ault.

To see the list of some guitar, bass, MIDI guitar, Chapman stick players and their gigging setups, built around Gig Performer, and tagged by genres, see here: https://community.gigperformer.com/t/index-of-guitarists-and-bassists/21905

Many of these artists are interviewed (the Backstage with Gig Performer show), so that you can see their live setups and experience in detail.

mmm... that computer is a celeron J4125. I already saw a thread somewhere (or maybe in Facebook) where a guy used these kind of miniPCs. It can work, but it´s limited unless you get a more powerful machine.

Besides, as stated earlier, yo need a good interface to keep latency low (those 0.3 ms you stated previously are not even close to the real RTL latency). For instance, with a cheap interface such as an Audient EVO, you´ll have around 6 ms RTL. Not bad if you´re not adding several digital pedals... but too high if you need to stack AD/DA stages.

 

[GuitarVST]

Depends on the plugins used. TH-U is very efficient, for example. S-Gear, too.

I saw people gigging with Core 2 Duo and 4 GB of RAM. I personally wouldn't even consider laptops lower than 8 GB of RAM.
As for the round-trip latency, RME guys get it under 1 ms. In my opinion, everything under 5 ms is great.

Igor Paspalj doesn't agree.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Depends on the plugins used. TH-U is very efficient, for example. S-Gear, too.

I'm not talking about that kinda stuff. If I'm going to use a computer based rig, I want to go all in and run wicked FX, not just some lame amp sims. I got that covered by super reliable, dedicated hardware already.
I want to run U-He FX, Eventide stuff, multiple instances of Relayer, IR reverbs, mad moog-alike filters and all that.
My Macbook Air is providing this without issues, but I doubt that pocket sized Celeron would as well.

 

[GuitarVST]

Like! One big like.

 

[Ipkz]

There is the Melo Audio ToneShifter Mega (or Harley Benton PM500, IIRC). And the Xsonic Xtone.

I had both, and got rid of them too.

They are "standard" audio interfaces (marketed as high quality 192kHz yadda yadda... BS). They are not very good sounding nor especially quiet. One of them recorded strange wave figures, and the other was noisy.

I know there´s no need to say this, but stay away from them.

Owner of an Xsonic Xtone here and I echo your opinion...

The last time I used mine was about two years ago, so my comments on drivers and latency may be a bit outdated. Still, here are some of the cons I experienced while using it:

• Poor driver support on Windows
• Horrible Left/right channel imbalance (especially noticeable with headphones), which also depends on the volume knob position
• Changing or even touching the volume knob introduces various types of noise
• Noticeably higher noise floor compared to dedicated interfaces like my current MOTU M2
• MIDI messages are not user-programmable
• Loud and stiff footswitches
• Reported latency in the driver didn’t match real-world performance. Actual latency was usually above 10 ms unless you push extreme settings (e.g. 192 kHz @ 128 samples)

Which is a shame, because to me the Xtone has an almost perfect form factor. On paper, it really seemed like an excellent option.