Here comes Kemper. Bye Felicias

[BenIfin]

Null tests are only important if accuracy is the only metric you care about.

I've a Kemper Player and a ToneX, and both sound good are both are sonically in the territory of the amps they are capturing, so I'm not overly concerned about the minutiae of their accuracy.

Said it before and I'll say it again ...... if I wanted accuracy or real, or accuracy or real was my northern star .... I'd [still] be using my Matchless DC30 Ceriatone Clone Head with my 2x12 Celestion Alnico / Ceramic Open Back Cab.

I used and "loved" all of the "big units" live ..... except for anything by NDSP ..... and all of them sound fine ..... but none of them have ever - to this day- felt like my old real rig ....... by far the closest I've ever gotten is the KPA with LP.

Has the audience ever cared or noticed ... never ... but I do ... and that matters a lot to me .... the more I enjoy my tone and sound and feel ... the happier I am and the more relaxed and better I play .... call me an amateur or a non-professional or a hack ...... I'd dont give a f%ck .... that's just what I know is true for, and to me.

Ben

 

[ispunk]

Haven't tried the free demo LP's yet .... but see Video Demo below ...... maybe I'm just old and jaded ..... but this demo playthrough sounds pretty f%cking amazing through my monitors turned up *real* loud - its only 4 x amps .... 62 Vox AC30 .... 1976 Park 2x12 .... Marshall Bluesbreaker ....90’s AC30/6TB ..... but you could cover a f%ck-ton of tones short of ultra-rock / metal.

T.Y.E.N.N.T's ...... trust your ears not null tests





Ben

How could your hear the amp tones through all that damn delay and reverb? Sounded like pure shit IMHO

 

[Deadpan]

How could your hear the amp tones through all that damn delay and reverb? Sounded like pure shit IMHO

I may be mistaken but I believe Purecab is used on these tones. I really dislike what Purecab does to the tone. Better to have a well mic'd tone to start with.

 

[BenIfin]

How could your hear the amp tones through all that damn delay and reverb? Sounded like pure shit IMHO

Well ..... I guess we have different ears :)

Yep - a lot of rev and delays but that's modern-pretend-you're-the Edge-worship-guitar these days .... it is easily the most boring and un-adventurous and soul-less style of tone and playing to emerge in the last decade or so .... everyone uses the same sounds and tones and gear and all the songs uses the same 4 chord progressions ... and all aim for the exact same U2-ColdPlay crescendo's ...... its the "Hillsong" effect ..... one of if not the worst musical exports from my dear country

" ... pure shit ... " seemed a bit over-the-top maybe (?)

I was listening to just the core tones and they were glorious ... i.m.h.o.

But as seems to be the general consensus on this forum of late ...... if its not a Fractal or NAM ..... its just sh%t ..... and it especially sh%t if its that dinosaur Kemper

Ben

 

[Orvillain]

I may be mistaken but I believe Purecab is used on these tones. I really dislike what Purecab does to the tone. Better to have a well mic'd tone to start with.

Second that. I never liked that pure cab feature. It always sounded really off to me.

 

[texhex]

Pure cab is the first thing I disable in the Kemper. Every time I forget, I’m always wondering “What the hell is wrong with this thing?” Then I remember, check pure cab. It sucks.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Well ..... I guess we have different ears :)

Yep - a lot of rev and delays but that's modern-pretend-you're-the Edge-worship-guitar these days .... it is easily the most boring and un-adventurous and soul-less style of tone and playing to emerge in the last decade or so .... everyone uses the same sounds and tones and gear and all the songs uses the same 4 chord progressions ... and all aim for the exact same U2-ColdPlay crescendo's ...... its the "Hillsong" effect ..... one of if not the worst musical exports from my dear country

" ... pure shit ... " seemed a bit over-the-top maybe (?)

I was listening to just the core tones and they were glorious ... i.m.h.o.

But as seems to be the general consensus on this forum of late ...... if its not a Fractal or NAM ..... its just sh%t ..... and it especially sh%t if its that dinosaur Kemper

Ben

Who gives a shit about NAM?

 

[BenIfin]

Who gives a shit about NAM?

Its all about null tests don't you know .... its no longer got anything to do with how a profile or capture responds and feels and sounds when you actually play it live via your hardware ... get with the program JT

Bn

 

[Mongillo19]

Its all about null tests don't you know .... its no longer got anything to do with how a profile or capture responds and feels and sounds when you actually play it live via your hardware ... get with the program JT

Bn

Not this again not sure how many times it has to be said. The majority of people you are referring to have clearly stated the Kemper can sound, feel, and respond very well.

However, if someone asks me what capturing device will most accurately capture their specific amp's tone, it's either NAM or Tone X. You can measure that. You are right, you can't measure "feel" or "response" because those are subjective.

The Kemper can sound great, Ben, but if the point of the device is to most accurately capture an amp, the Kemper isn't the best. And that's okay! If you don't have your own gear to profile it honestly won't matter and even if you do it may not matter. Some just want a good tone and not necessarily an exact 1:1 of their gear.

I do think it's foolish to disparage data though because it doesn't fit with your ideas. You can simply acknowledge the data and move on using what you like, because ultimately that's all that matters.

 

[BenIfin]

However, if someone asks me what capturing device will most accurately capture their specific amp's tone, it's either NAM or Tone X. You can measure that. You are right, you can't measure "feel" or "response" because those are subjective.

I have never argued or question that NAM and Tonex produce better null test accuracy ... that is beyond question.

And yes ..... null test results tell you nothing about the feel and response -or- how a Profile or Capture sounds when it is played back live through your hardware playback system of choice.

I agree with you agreeing with me :)

Ben

 

[Deadpan]

I have never argued or question that NAM and Tonex produce better null test accuracy ... that is beyond question.

And yes ..... null test results tell you nothing about the feel and response -or- how a Profile or Capture sounds when it is played back live through your hardware playback system of choice.

I agree with you agreeing with me :)

Ben

I have an issue with nam I can't explain. I do only use captures with baked in cab though.

 

[Orvillain]

But as seems to be the general consensus on this forum of late ...... if its not a Fractal or NAM ..... its just sh%t ..... and it especially sh%t if its that dinosaur Kemper

If it can be objectively measured, then it can be objectively quantified, and if it can be objectively quantified, it can be sorted into a hierarchy.

You tend to do this a lot Ben - bait the people who are interested in objectivity, into some silly debate. Presumably because you feel a personal connection to the Kemper that you need to defend. YAWWWWWN!

I have an issue with nam I can't explain. I do only use captures with baked in cab though.

Unfortunately, I don't think NAM is really intended for amp+cab captures. I think the accuracy is a lot lower in such scenarios.

Personally I don't see much value in baking in the cab. You're not going to get any specific extra magic or interaction between the amp and cab.

 

[BenIfin]

If it can be objectively measured, then it can be objectively quantified, and if it can be objectively quantified, it can be sorted into a hierarchy.

You tend to do this a lot Ben - bait the people who are interested in objectivity, into some silly debate. Presumably because you feel a personal connection to the Kemper that you need to defend. YAWWWWWN!

I totally agree with your first point.

Re: NAM .... I would have thought you know more than most as I have posted many times in response to your posts that I have explicitly stated that there is no debate that NAM absolutely does null-test the best for static capturing ... for the umpteenth time ..... so I'm not going to engage in the "I'm Mr Subjective and you're Mr Objective" debate ... re: NAM we are in furious agreement.

Re: Fractal - or any other end-to-end all-in-one hardware modeler ..... there is simply no designable, quantifiable objective test in existence that can prove Fractal is better/worse than L6 / Kemper / QC etc........ or vice-verse ... there is only the one that is subjectively the "best" for any person.

Re: my "personal connection to defend Kemper" [paraphrasing] ..... I nearly spat out my Weetbix as we say down here... please don't impute any pseudo-pop-psycho-babble-motivational-bullsh%t to me ..... (a) for the record you could not be further from the truth and (b) you have no idea what drives me and nor do I of you .... and thats why I don't post those kind of cheap and lazy and not-so-subtle "digs" to anyone, so am not a fan of getting them ... OK ?

My unwarranted snarkiness and sarcasm aside ...... my simple point remains ..... as I wrote above .... that [any] comparative null test result will tell you nothing about the feel, response or sound of any such Profile or Capture when it is played back through a hardware and speaker playback system of your choice in a live scenario be it a room / stage / home / rehearsal environment etc ........ ie:- where probably %99.99 of guitar players actually hear and play and use their rigs.

Ben

 

[Orvillain]

I totally agree with your first point.

so I'm not going to engage in the "I'm Mr Subjective and you're Mr Objective" debate

Well then I absolutely do not understand the point of your original comment. Did you just want to passive-aggressively shit all over the people (me being one of the primary targets) around here without any response?? This isn't a void for you to throw out your typical endless and badly formatted commentary. If you say something that seems silly, you're going to get called out on it. That is just the nature of discussion forums. It has happened to me plenty of times too.

You can save the holier-than-thou faux outrage mate. It doesn't work on me as you well know!

My unwarranted snarkiness and sarcasm aside ...... my simple point remains ..... as I wrote above .... that [any] comparative null test result will tell you nothing about the feel, response or sound of any such Profile or Capture when it is played back through a hardware and speaker playback system of your choice in a live scenario be it a room / stage / home / rehearsal environment etc ........ ie:- where probably %99.99 of guitar players actually hear and play and use their rigs.

I mean... this is clearly not true if feel is just a derivative of sound - which was the big debate last week.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I totally agree with your first point.

Re: NAM .... I would have thought you know more than most as I have posted many times in response to your posts that I have explicitly stated that there is no debate that NAM absolutely does null-test the best for static capturing ... for the umpteenth time ..... so I'm not going to engage in the "I'm Mr Subjective and you're Mr Objective" debate ... re: NAM we are in furious agreement.

Re: Fractal - or any other end-to-end all-in-one hardware modeler ..... there is simply no designable, quantifiable objective test in existence that can prove Fractal is better/worse than L6 / Kemper / QC etc........ or vice-verse ... there is only the one that is subjectively the "best" for any person.

Re: my "personal connection to defend Kemper" [paraphrasing] ..... I nearly spat out my Weetbix as we say down here... please don't impute any pseudo-pop-psycho-babble-motivational-bullsh%t to me ..... (a) for the record you could not be further from the truth and (b) you have no idea what drives me and nor do I of you .... and thats why I don't post those kind of cheap and lazy and not-so-subtle "digs" to anyone, so am not a fan of getting them ... OK ?

My unwarranted snarkiness and sarcasm aside ...... my simple point remains ..... as I wrote above .... that [any] comparative null test result will tell you nothing about the feel, response or sound of any such Profile or Capture when it is played back through a hardware and speaker playback system of your choice in a live scenario be it a room / stage / home / rehearsal environment etc ........ ie:- where probably %99.99 of guitar players actually hear and play and use their rigs.

Ben

I haven’t been following the “null test” thing, or NAM in general, but a couple of questions:

(1). What would a “dynamic” capture look like? Or at least a “non-static”.

(2). Your position seems to be “I don’t care if two things produce tge same electrical signal in response to a given input, all of that is out the window once you turn that electrical signal into an acoustic signal”. If that’s the case - what do you propose is introduced during the playback in a room that would cause one to sound different from the other?

 

[BenIfin]

Well then I absolutely do not understand the point of your original comment. Did you just want to passive-aggressively shit all over the people (me being one of the primary targets) around here without any response?? This isn't a void for you to throw out your typical endless and badly formatted commentary. If you say something that seems silly, you're going to get called out on it. That is just the nature of discussion forums. It has happened to me plenty of times too.

You can save the holier-than-thou faux outrage mate. It doesn't work on me as you well know!


I mean... this is clearly not true if feel is just a derivative of sound - which was the big debate last week.

Like I said ..... you have no idea about me, my motivations or what drives me, even though you seem to think you do .... but your comments above paint a very clear self-picture of who you are.

Nothing holy or faux intended.

Ben

 

[Orvillain]

Nice misdirection Benny. But you're the guy who completely misrepresented everything about this topic and took a sideswipe at me and others who actually care about accuracy:

But as seems to be the general consensus on this forum of late ...... if its not a Fractal or NAM ..... its just sh%t ..... and it especially sh%t if its that dinosaur Kemper

With the passive aggressive smiley to boot!

You can't hide. We all know what you meant. Comments painting pictures indeed!

 

[Orvillain]

Not this again not sure how many times it has to be said. The majority of people you are referring to have clearly stated the Kemper can sound, feel, and respond very well.

However, if someone asks me what capturing device will most accurately capture their specific amp's tone, it's either NAM or Tone X. You can measure that. You are right, you can't measure "feel" or "response" because those are subjective.

The Kemper can sound great, Ben, but if the point of the device is to most accurately capture an amp, the Kemper isn't the best. And that's okay! If you don't have your own gear to profile it honestly won't matter and even if you do it may not matter. Some just want a good tone and not necessarily an exact 1:1 of their gear.

I do think it's foolish to disparage data though because it doesn't fit with your ideas. You can simply acknowledge the data and move on using what you like, because ultimately that's all that matters.

Exactly all of this. Exactly. All of it. Exact. Lee.

 

[BenIfin]

I haven’t been following the “null test” thing, or NAM in general, but a couple of questions:

(1). What would a “dynamic” capture look like? Or at least a “non-static”.

(2). Your position seems to be “I don’t care if two things produce tge same electrical signal in response to a given input, all of that is out the window once you turn that electrical signal into an acoustic signal”. If that’s the case - what do you propose is introduced during the playback in a room that would cause one to sound different from the other?

(1) I don't really know ..... *maybe* something along the lines of what Kemper is doing with their LP process or what Steve/NAM claim to be approaching with their "parametric" approach (?)

(2) Sort of ..... once you play anything back ... be it a modeler or a Kemper Profile or a NAM Capture etc.... ... in a live setting ... it almost always needs to go through and Amp and a Speaker or "FRFR" with an IR etc ..... these extra "things" have a massive impact on the overall sound/feel/dynamics ..... i.m.h.o .... a much greater impact than any difference in modelling or Profiling / Capturing accuracy.

Ben

 

[SKU]

Sold my Kemper two years ago and I didn't miss it once. Now I have a Tonex and I think it does a better job ...
Two problems with the Kemper:
1. All DI profiles kinda sound and feel the same through a cab ..
2. I couldn't get over the fact that inside the Kemper Head which looked like an amp head lied a small PCB that did all the work. I didn't even own the Head,I had the Stage but same thing. Felt like it was old tech. I know this is illogical but there you go ...
3. There was this disconnect ( some would call it latency ) especially compared to a real amp side by side but even compared to the Atomic Amplifire which felt more direct. Tonex is much better in this area...