Here comes Kemper. Bye Felicias

[Boudoir Guitar]

(1) I don't really know ..... *maybe* something along the lines of what Kemper is doing with their LP process or what Steve/NAM claim to be approaching with their "parametric" approach (?)

(2) Sort of ..... once you play anything back ... be it a modeler or a Kemper Profile or a NAM Capture etc.... ... in a live setting ... it almost always needs to go through and Amp and a Speaker or please god make it stop with an IR etc ..... these extra "things" have a massive impact on the overall sound/feel/dynamics ..... i.m.h.o .... a much greater impact than any difference in modelling or Profiling / Capturing accuracy.

Ben

Still just trying to understand: is your argument simply that you prefer Kemper played in the room, or that you think it is more amp like?

so if the latter the thought is that the NAM can capture the signal of an amp, but loses something in getting that signal through a poweramp/speaker, and maybe Kemper’s “inaccuracy” is actually a baked in correction that allows it to more closely sound like the amp once actually sent through an amp/speaker?

 

[JT]

 

[MirrorProfiles]

Kemper suffers from the same issue that you’ll notice in the plugin clones of it. Kemper, STL Tonehub and TH-U all have this same phenomenon where all the amps feel and respond similarly, no matter what profile is being used. If this sound and feel is similar to the target amp, it’s fine. But that’s not always the case.

If we want to descend into feel debates, NAM feels better than Kemper to me. Its response can be more true to the source it is being trained on because the approach used doesn’t suffer from the limitations Kemper’s does.

Full rig models aren’t great on NAM, but they were my least favourite aspect of the Kemper too - you’d be stuck with a tone that either works or it doesn’t, and in 99% of situations, it’s not right. At least with direct models, you have the means to change the sound still, if you wish.

Full rig models don’t really need to exist, just make a direct model and IR at the same time and you can have the best of both.

I really don’t buy into the fact that liquid profiles are anything more than a novelty. If you want accuracy, you’d make models at different settings.

Fractal can be shown to be accurate against real amps too, it doesn’t have to rely on personal opinion or listening tests.

 

[Deadpan]

Kemper suffers from the same issue that you’ll notice in the plugin clones of it. Kemper, STL Tonehub and TH-U all have this same phenomenon where all the amps feel and respond similarly, no matter what profile is being used.

I disagree with this.

Feel is exactly why I started profiling amps.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I disagree with this.

Feel is exactly why I started profiling amps.

Same for me. Kemper feels like an amp, but it doesn’t feel the same as every amp I have profiled with it. There’s something uniform between all profiles that is always there for me, no matter what amp I’m starting from. Machine learning doesn’t really have this issue, because it’s not just EQ matching the signals to an existing amp.

The other thing is the IR loader in the Kemper significantly holds it back. You can compare a normal IR and a truncated one (to Kemper’s max length) in a DAW and hear what happens.

Kemper is cool for just doing a job but IMO it’s got so many unnecessary compromises that other solutions in 2024 don’t that I don’t really have any use for it any more. Its like a Nokia 3310, solid, reliable, does what it promised, but also old and dated by modern standards.

 

[TubeStack]

Kemper suffers from the same issue that you’ll notice in the plugin clones of it. Kemper, STL Tonehub and TH-U all have this same phenomenon where all the amps feel and respond similarly, no matter what profile is being used. If this sound and feel is similar to the target amp, it’s fine. But that’s not always the case.

I’ve owned a Kemper Stage, but didn’t profile my own amps with it, so can’t really comment.

But this is something it seems the QC does well? I captured my amp with it, which has a pretty unique and spongy feel, in my opinion, and the QC capture gets it really close.

But to be honest, I’m always pulled a bit toward the Kemper because I just trust it/him more than the QC/NDSP.

Howver, if the Kemper can’t get the feel of individual amps right, particularly mine, then that’s a no-go, for me.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I’ve owned a Kemper Stage, but didn’t profile my own amps with it, so can’t really comment.

But this is something it seems the QC does well? I captured my amp with it, which has a pretty unique and spongy feel, in my opinion, and the QC capture gets it really close.

But to be honest, I’m always pulled a bit toward the Kemper because I just trust it/him more than the QC/NDSP.

Howver, if the Kemper can’t get the feel of individual amps right, particularly mine, then that’s a no-go, for me.

QC uses a similar approach to Kemper I think. It seems to be a bit more accurate than Kemper but how close it is is kind of context dependent

 

[BenIfin]

Kemper suffers from the same issue that you’ll notice in the plugin clones of it. Kemper, STL Tonehub and TH-U all have this same phenomenon where all the amps feel and respond similarly, no matter what profile is being used. If this sound and feel is similar to the target amp, it’s fine. But that’s not always the case.

If we want to descend into feel debates, NAM feels better than Kemper to me. Its response can be more true to the source it is being trained on because the approach used doesn’t suffer from the limitations Kemper’s does.

Full rig models aren’t great on NAM, but they were my least favourite aspect of the Kemper too - you’d be stuck with a tone that either works or it doesn’t, and in 99% of situations, it’s not right. At least with direct models, you have the means to change the sound still, if you wish.

Full rig models don’t really need to exist, just make a direct model and IR at the same time and you can have the best of both.

I really don’t buy into the fact that liquid profiles are anything more than a novelty. If you want accuracy, you’d make models at different settings.

Fractal can be shown to be accurate against real amps too, it doesn’t have to rely on personal opinion or listening tests.

I disagree with this.

Feel is exactly why I started profiling amps.

I think I'm with DP on this one ..... I do have NAM on my Studio PC and have found some really great free Captures .... and there is no question NAM is more accurate than Kemper for static profiles ... and as is QC over the Kemper too

But so far, I can only play NAM through my RME UCX and Home Studio Amp and monitors ... whereas the Kemper hardware unit is specifically built to play its profile format as best as possible ... and I would think/guess (?) that when CK designed the unit, he took some care to build the analog front and back end of the hardware to optimize the profiles sound and feel as best as he could.

Whilst NAM is only coming through my home monitoring system .... I *have* on a very few occasions fed it out to my Matrix GT100 and Celestion "FRFR" Cab from my RMU UCX ... and it was really really good ... but to me, just not quite as amp'y to as the KPA with LP's ... personal preference of course.

My view is that we all hear and feel sound subjectively and prefer what we prefer ...... one persons great tone and great feel is another persons cardboard tone and stiff-sterile feel ..... and I cant see that ever changing.

However .... if the day comes when NAM is built into a good quality hardware box with good quality analog front and back end etc..... something like a Tonex Box ..... and has some sort of " AI-based version of LP's " ... I'll be the first in line to try it out.

And if I like it more than whatever my rig will be at that time, I'll happily buy it / keep it / use it.

My priority has / is / will always be live use as opposed to home recording use .... I use Helix Native for that and its more than good enough for that purpose.

Ben

 

[BenIfin]

Why is it that every time I type the letters F R F R without a space between them, it auto-inserts " please god make it stop " (?)

=> this is what happens when I type the letters eff-are-eff-are => "FRFR" <= *without* a space between them ?

Is this an inside joke I'm not getting :)

Ben

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

I think I'm with DP on this one ..... I do have NAM on my Studio PC and have found some really great free Captures .... and there is no question NAM is more accurate than Kemper for static profiles ... and as is QC over the Kemper too

But so far, I can only play NAM through my RME UCX and Home Studio Amp and monitors ... whereas the Kemper hardware unit is specifically built to play its profile format as best as possible ... and I would think/guess (?) that when CK designed the unit, he took some care to build the analog front and back end of the hardware to optimize the profiles sound and feel as best as he could.

Whilst NAM is only coming through my home monitoring system .... I *have* on a very few occasions fed it out to my Matrix GT100 and Celestion please god make it stop Cab from my RMU UCX ... and it was really really good ... but to me, just not quite as amp'y to as the KPA with LP's ... personal preference of course.

My view is that we all hear and feel sound subjectively and prefer what we prefer ...... one persons great tone and great feel is another persons cardboard tone and still feel ..... and I cant see that ever changing.

However .... if the day comes when NAM is built into a good quality hardware box with good quality analog front and back end etc..... something like a Tonex Box ..... and has some sort of " AI-based version of LP's " ... I'll be the first in line to try it out.

And if I like it more than whatever my rig will be at that time, I'll happily buy it / keep it / use it/

My priority has / is / will always be live use as opposed to home recording use .... I use Helix Native for that and its more than good enough for that purpose.

Ben

Holy shit. This whole conversation is rooted in you playing profiles/captures that you didn’t make, of an amp you didn’t play, in your jam room through monitors?!?!?

 

[Mongillo19]

Is this an inside joke I'm not getting :)

It was in response to the A I T R debate

 

[BenIfin]

Holy shit. This whole conversation is rooted in you playing profiles/captures that you didn’t make, of an amp you didn’t play, in your jam room through monitors?!?!?

Only secular shit please :)

I strongly suspect that like > %99 of KPA and other Capture device users ..... none of us have ever bothered to make our own profiles .... don't have the right/good gear ... good rooms ... good setup ears etc.... but most importantly ... for me .... why would I bother making my own profiles when I can buy pro profiles from MBritt [my fav.] and they give me everything I want / need ... and he has excellent profiles of my 2 last tube Amps ... the AC30 and the Matchless DC 30.

For what its worth .... from when I started playing live many moons ago I've been very lucky .. I used a Fender Dual Showman Head for ~7 years ... then a Boogie Mark III Combo [Purple Stripe] for ~18 years .... then an AC 30 for ~3 years ... then a Matchless DC30 Ceriatone Clone for ~4 years ... and then 12 years ago went Digital to preserve my neck and upper-back and have bought / re-bought and played all the "big ones" multiple times over ....... I reckon I know [my] tube amps and modelers pretty well .... and I certainly do know what I prefer :)

Honestly cant see how this might "discredit" me or anyone else with experience from commenting in this thread.

Ben

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Only secular shit please :)

I strongly suspect that like > %99 of KPA and other Capture device users ..... none of us have ever bothered to make our own profiles .... don't have the right/good gear ... good rooms ... good setup ears etc.... but most importantly ... for me .... why would I bother making my own profiles when I can buy pro profiles from MBritt [my fav.] and they give me everything I want / need ... and he has excellent profiles of my 2 last tube Amps ... the AC30 and the Matchless DC 30.

For what its worth .... from when I started playing live many moons ago I've been very lucky .. I used a Fender Dual Showman Head for ~7 years ... then a Boogie Mark III Combo [Purple Stripe] for ~18 years .... then an AC 30 for ~3 years ... then a Matchless DC30 Ceriatone Clone for ~4 years ... and then 12 years ago went Digital to preserve my neck and upper-back and have bought / re-bought and played all the "big ones" multiple times over ....... I reckon I know [my] tube amps and modelers pretty well .... and I certainly do know what I prefer :)

Honestly cant see how this might "discredit" me or anyone else with experience from commenting in this thread.

Ben

How does the fact that you’ve never played a profile of an amp next to the amp profiled with ANY of these devices discredit your assertion that there can be “no question” that the NAM is more accurate?!? I have no idea.

the assertion might be right, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are just talking straight out of your ass with zero first hand experience related to anything you are talking about in this thread. Ugh.

 

[BenIfin]

How does the fact that you’ve never played a profile of an amp next to the amp profiled with ANY of these devices discredit your assertion that there can be “no question” that the NAM is more accurate?!? I have no idea.

the assertion might be right, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are just talking straight out of your ass with zero first hand experience related to anything you are talking about in this thread. Ugh.

Huh ..... ?? W.T.A.F ?? Where did THAT come from ? Is this meant to be a joke ??

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Huh ..... ?? W.T.A.F ?? Where did THAT come from ? Is this meant to be a joke ??

Not a joke at all. This is the prototypical example of fear forums at their worst. Someone talking with absolute certainty about shit they have zero firsthand experience with.

You seem to think that your years of experience playing various tube amps in combination with your experience playing Kemper profiles of similar amps is relevant to the discussion at hand. It is not.

 

[BenIfin]

Not a joke at all. This is the prototypical example of fear forums at their worst. Someone talking with absolute certainty about shit they have zero firsthand experience with.

You seem to think that your years of experience playing various tube amps in combination with your experience playing Kemper profiles of similar amps is relevant to the discussion at hand. It is not.

Your incredulity in Post 690 was very clear and unambiguous ... I was simply expressing what I clearly prefaced were my opinions and my experiences and your response struck me as totally off-point and unexpected. You clearly thought / think I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I am "talking with absolute certainty about shit I have zero firsthand experience with" ... how you go from A to B I have no idea

See the OP in this thread ...... how on earth does does anything I wrote above at post 688 and 693 expressing my opinions and my experiences lead to your comments / conclusions ..... along with a personal "shit-bag".

This sort of stuff makes TGP look sensible.

Ben

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Your incredulity in Post 690 was very clear and unambiguous ... I was simply expressing what I clearly prefaced were my opinions and my experiences and your response struck me as totally off-point and unexpected. You clearly thought / think I have no idea what I'm talking about and that I am "talking with absolute certainty about shit I have zero firsthand experience with" ... how you go from A to B I have no idea

See the OP in this thread ...... how on earth does does anything I wrote above at post 688 and 693 expressing my opinions and my experiences lead to your comments / conclusions ..... along with a personal "shit-bag".

This sort of stuff makes TGP look sensible.

Ben

There are opinions that are useful because they are based on relevant first hand experience. This is not one of those.

 

[BenIfin]

There are opinions that are useful because they are based on relevant first hand experience. This is not one of those.

Well .... if that's your opinion of me / what I've written .... which [obviously] I disagree with .... that's you opinion .... and that's [obviously] all good.

Guess I'll just add that it looks like I've made 2 new forum friends in the last 18 hours .... good to see I'm on a roll <= attempt at good natured humour

Ben

 

[Foxmeister]

Having now spent a fair amount of time with my Kemper Player, I can say that whilst I think liquid profiles are *generally* superior to "legacy" profiles, I'm not sold on the idea that they are a game-changer other than for long-time Kemper users.

In general, I simply find it easier to dial in a good model than it is to find a decent profile/capture, and whilst liquid profiling has somewhat closed that gap a little on the Kemper, I find that I can adjust a ToneX capture just as well as a liquid profile.

Since I only have a Kemper Player, I'm unable to profile my own amps, so I do think that Kemper needs to come out with a software profile maker.

 

[JT]

The Kemper is fine. Zero desire to revisit. Still.