Helix Modeling Difference ... Pre and Post FW 1.06 ... (?)

[BenIfin]

About that, this was a poor decision by L6 to use the same names and the same parameters in the models (no bright caps, etc.), to me it did appear to be just an updated Pod HD when I bought my Helix in 2020.
Just another thing to add to the pile of "Helix is old AF".

Hopefully the next flagship (if ever) will be a true update from the "POD HD".

To the best of my knowledge, the one key modeling thing we don't know about Helix is whether or not, since its release and when any new amp is added .... are the algorithms ever updated from FW to FW ?

From things D.I and Ben have posted over the years, sometimes its seemed like a yes ..... sometimes its seemed like a no .... but mostly it seems to have been a case of we wont say or confirm either way .... the reason seemingly being they don't want never ending questions about what was or was not done

Not asking for or wanting Fractal specificity or anything like that .... but not even an "ongoing general modeling improvements across all amps" would go a long way when it has occurred.

Ben

 

[pipelineaudio]

@BahamaDada I'm trying the settings in the fireball manual, actually liking them a lot!

I'm often confused how to set the Scream 808 to use with these amps.

There is a #metoo meme among the youtube guitar gurus that "you can't turn plugin tube screamers' gain to full CCW, you have to set it to 1 or more" but I've never gotten a good reason why that may be. I ask every time I see the claim but no answer so far

Then there's the pretty massive level drop, compared to some of the other pedals on the helix.

What would be a good starting point for Gain, Tone and level in front of these amp settings (yes I know it depends, but for this, a jack of all trades that should help with the mush in all of these settings)

 

[GTR37]

@BahamaDada I'm trying the settings in the fireball manual, actually liking them a lot!

I'm often confused how to set the Scream 808 to use with these amps.

There is a #metoo meme among the youtube guitar gurus that "you can't turn plugin tube screamers' gain to full CCW, you have to set it to 1 or more" but I've never gotten a good reason why that may be. I ask every time I see the claim but no answer so far

Then there's the pretty massive level drop, compared to some of the other pedals on the helix.

What would be a good starting point for Gain, Tone and level in front of these amp settings (yes I know it depends, but for this, a jack of all trades that should help with the mush in all of these settings)

What the tube screamer does is focuses the low end and adds mids

What you want is level on 10
Gain on 0 or .5
Basically you don’t want to add more gain you want to add a hot level which in turn pushes the preamp harder

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

What the tube screamer does is focuses the low end and adds mids

What you want is level on 10
Gain on 0 or .5
Basically you don’t want to add more gain you want to add a hot level which in turn pushes the preamp harder

Most high gain players use it in the fx loop of an amp, mostly.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Most high gain players use it in the fx loop of an amp, mostly.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

I've seen many modern high gain players , run a TS in the loop,no gain, volume at 100, tone at noon.

I'm not saying I do it, I am saying I have seen it plenty of times...no joke.

If I'm honest, TS sucks for Any of my applications. I hate the thing.

I suppose maybe the klon type pedal may have replaced it now, but when I was coming up, I knew many who did either a TS or an eq to tighten things up ...for the chugs.

 

[James Freeman]

Most high gain players use it in the fx loop of an amp, mostly.

All high gain players I know have a TS or SD-1 in front of the amp, not in the loop.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Am I wrong about the level drop being extreme with the scream 808 compared to the other pedals? I may be testing it wrong.

 

[Alex Kenivel]

Am I wrong about the level
Stop being extreme with the scream 808 compared to the other pedals? I may be testing it wrong.

Try the Pillars (EQD Plumes). Tons more level on tap than the standard TS model

 

[Alex Kenivel]

I've seen many modern high gain players , run a TS in the loop,no gain, volume at 100, tone at noon.

I'm not saying I do it, I am saying I have seen it plenty of times...no joke.

If I'm honest, TS sucks for Any of my applications. I hate the thing.

I suppose maybe the klon type pedal may have replaced it now, but when I was coming up, I knew many who did either a TS or an eq to tighten things up ...for the chugs.

Like who?? Genuinely interested because the standard recipe IME has always been a mid hump boost up front to help shave off low end and slam the preamp. Putting a TS like that in the loop would take the preamp signal and boost its level going into the power amp. I mean, if you want more power amp saturation, that's cool, or maybe a big boost for leads?

 

[Lele]

What the tube screamer does is focuses the low end and adds mids

What you want is level on 10
Gain on 0 or .5
Basically you don’t want to add more gain you want to add a hot level which in turn pushes the preamp harder

Even with gain=0 TubeScreamer circuit gets a significant clipping (=distortion) of the signal. So you will add anyway a gain stage besides the low cut effect.

This is the distortion of the Helix Scream 808 with gain 0 (tone 5).
My impulse is the first vertical line at 315 Hz, then you see the harmonics generated by the TubeScreamer. They are just odd harmonics (TS has symmetrical clipping).
The first harmonic in this graph (945 Hz, 3rd order harmonics) is pretty powerful, just 20 dB lower than the original signal.

This doesn't mean anything anyway about the fact that you may like its clipping.

 

[likitlikeyoulikeit]

Like who?? Genuinely interested because the standard recipe IME has always been a mid hump boost up front to help shave off low end and slam the preamp. Putting a TS like that in the loop would take the preamp signal and boost its level going into the power amp. I mean, if you want more power amp saturation, that's cool, or maybe a big boost for leads?

All high gain players I know have a TS or SD-1 in front of the amp, not in the loop.

I know I am getting some shit for all of this, and probably should have kept my mouth shut, but ..

1. I don't run it this way
2. I have seen, with my own eyes, many do this.
3. Not saying it is correct incorrect.
4. I distinctly remember the reasons given were to tighten up the low end. Also to help shape the pre amp distortion. Not any different than stacking drive pedals, or gain stages....not that big of a deal. People run drives into ts for that all the time.
5. This was in older amps, and was more popular back in the day when amps were normally pushed harder and louder for natural breakup.
6. It's left on at all times.

Pardon me for interrupting your thread, and I will gladly exit it and apologize for any offense....

Look at me, big dumb stupid head guy

Peas

 

[pipelineaudio]

The spectrum analysis of these things usually shows them as bandpass filters frequency wise. Before the amp it really seems to help with that. I’m just wondering about two things really

1. Why the constant claim from soy face click baiters that you can’t use a digital tube screamer at full ccw gain to get the same effect as a hardware one at full ccw gain

2. What sort of level should I be aiming for? I see someone saying ten on the level. I think it remember that was still below unity gain.

 

[GTR37]

Like who?? Genuinely interested because the standard recipe IME has always been a mid hump boost up front to help shave off low end and slam the preamp. Putting a TS like that in the loop would take the preamp signal and boost its level going into the power amp. I mean, if you want more power amp saturation, that's cool, or maybe a big boost for leads?

This is my understanding as well , shape and add clarity to the low end attack and hit the preamp harder

 

[BahamaDada]

@BahamaDada I'm trying the settings in the fireball manual, actually liking them a lot!

I'm often confused how to set the Scream 808 to use with these amps.

There is a #metoo meme among the youtube guitar gurus that "you can't turn plugin tube screamers' gain to full CCW, you have to set it to 1 or more" but I've never gotten a good reason why that may be. I ask every time I see the claim but no answer so far

Then there's the pretty massive level drop, compared to some of the other pedals on the helix.

What would be a good starting point for Gain, Tone and level in front of these amp settings (yes I know it depends, but for this, a jack of all trades that should help with the mush in all of these settings)

Which "manual setting" have you tried? IMO they are all a bit too saturated, but they convey (to me) what the "ENGL" sound is. This super fat, modern sound. I mean, the Fireball should be a bit rougher in sound (I only ever played a real FB and a Gigmaster), but it is still "tamer" to the british sounding amps I had.

 

[pipelineaudio]

I'm liking the rock rhythm and lead, for metal...The metal ones seem a but too "thin" or something for me

 

[Sascha Franck]

F*** TS'es. All of them. I'd like to finally see an RC Booster in the HX ecosystem. Does what most people use their TS'es for, just that it's doing it well and with infinitely more flexibility. There's a reason I have 4 of them (one original, 3 clones). Really, I don't get it why we can't have that one in the Helix. Should be dead easy to program (heck L6, don't clone it, come up with your own incarnation) and it's by far the best friend of any other dirt circuits I've ever come across.

 

[pipelineaudio]

What is the RC boost? Does it do the HPF/LPF thing?

Actually, why wouldn't I just put a parametric with the gain cranked instead of any of these? Do I actually like the clipping part of it? Experiment time!

 

[pipelineaudio]

Helix ts808 vs parametric eq. James freeman could probably get it closer

 

[Sascha Franck]

What is the RC boost? Does it do the HPF/LPF thing?

There's several clones, pretty much all of them working well. With gain close to zero, it's almost completely clean (some versions actually are completely clean). So for a TS-effect you might want to turn down both bass and treble, bass a little more. Boost to taste and add some additional dirt to taste as well. Great. And working well with any other pedals, even as a post-booster (or just EQ), adding some kinda special punchiness.