Fractal Talk

[saarangnarayan]

By default it has a massive low end thump which makes it feel pretty fun.

I always thought the NDSP stuff was trying so hard to simulate that tube "squish" that it went overboard and made all their models sound like they had an additional compressor on the low end and low mids. While perfectly enjoyable at lower volumes or through headphones, the low-end thump always felt like a sign that NDSP was kinda lying to me (sounds crazy, but I don't know how else to put it). And god help me if I use a ribbon mic in their plugins...

Apart from Tweed amps, I have never experienced that kind of blob-y thump in any real-world tube amps I've played through (which is only around a dozen, tbh). Fractal does an excellent job of giving the same effect of weight and thump with the right settings but for some reason it feels much more natural and "realistic" (for the lack of a better word).

 

[Jarick]

I was surprised to learn that the Imperial was based on a Deluxe because new ones I’ve played don’t sound anything like a Deluxe.

I wonder how much the circuit/construction has changed since BAD took over. I’d be curious to try an original one to compare.

Do you know what version the NDSP plugin is based on?

No clue on either of them. I heard the Imperial had something to do with a Deluxe and that's usually my go to clean amp. And the sound depends on the modeler, some of them just make a generic Fender clean tone, some of them will be more mid focused, some just thin, etc. I'm guessing the Tone King is more like an idealized Deluxe with a bigger sound especially in the low end.

I haven’t tried that one yet but I am actually enjoying the NDSP plug in stuff
I will check out the Toneking and Morgan suite likely next
Basically I decided to unplug the FM9 give NDSP a go for a month and see , then go back to the Fractal w fresh ears

Curious what you think!

The NDSP stuff to me is perfect for when you need a quick tone for tracking ideas.

I always thought the NDSP stuff was trying so hard to simulate that tube "squish" that it went overboard and made all their models sound like they had an additional compressor on the low end and low mids. While perfectly enjoyable at lower volumes or through headphones, the low-end thump always felt like a sign that NDSP was kinda lying to me (sounds crazy, but I don't know how else to put it). And god help me if I use a ribbon mic in their plugins...

Apart from Tweed amps, I have never experienced that kind of blob-y thump in any real-world tube amps I've played through (which is only around a dozen, tbh). Fractal does an excellent job of giving the same effect of weight and thump with the right settings but for some reason it feels much more natural and "realistic" (for the lack of a better word).

The Imperial plugin is the only one to me that has that massive borderline unrealistic low end push. The rest of the models I'm not as sure. But I wouldn't be surprised if Fractal is a lot more accurate. I think NDSP is better for that quick ballpark thing.

 

[metropolis_4]

I always thought the NDSP stuff was trying so hard to simulate that tube "squish" that it went overboard and made all their models sound like they had an additional compressor on the low end and low mids. While perfectly enjoyable at lower volumes or through headphones, the low-end thump always felt like a sign that NDSP was kinda lying to me (sounds crazy, but I don't know how else to put it). And god help me if I use a ribbon mic in their plugins...

Apart from Tweed amps, I have never experienced that kind of blob-y thump in any real-world tube amps I've played through (which is only around a dozen, tbh). Fractal does an excellent job of giving the same effect of weight and thump with the right settings but for some reason it feels much more natural and "realistic" (for the lack of a better word).

I had a similar experience with the amp models in the QC. It was a great sound for instant-gratification for high gain metal sounds, but it drove me crazy when trying to dial in things like Vox amps.

It felt like a fake sheen they added to every amp model.

No clue on either of them. I heard the Imperial had something to do with a Deluxe and that's usually my go to clean amp. And the sound depends on the modeler, some of them just make a generic Fender clean tone, some of them will be more mid focused, some just thin, etc. I'm guessing the Tone King is more like an idealized Deluxe with a bigger sound especially in the low end.

That sounds about right. To me they just sound like a really dark and kind of dull Deluxe. I’ve been really disappointed every time I’ve tried a real one.

 

[laxu]

No clue on either of them. I heard the Imperial had something to do with a Deluxe and that's usually my go to clean amp. And the sound depends on the modeler, some of them just make a generic Fender clean tone, some of them will be more mid focused, some just thin, etc. I'm guessing the Tone King is more like an idealized Deluxe with a bigger sound especially in the low end.

Afaik the Tone King Imperial is basically a Blackface and Tweed circuit thrown into one box, with a different speaker. It's been years since I've tried the real thing, but I really liked it. To me the plugin sounds similar at least.

 

[dk_ace]

Afaik the Tone King Imperial is basically a Blackface and Tweed circuit thrown into one box, with a different speaker. It's been years since I've tried the real thing, but I really liked it. To me the plugin sounds similar at least.

That’s what I recall too. Haven’t played one myself though. Tweed ain’t my thing..

D

 

[metropolis_4]

Here you go, a quick sound test of some Ride the Lightning era Metallica with the Silverface Twin preset I made

This is all my black Strat -> sd-1 -> Twin -> 2x12 lead 80

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Important safety reminder when recording:

I was really struggling with timing when I was recording this (you can hear the guitars are off especially in the second time through).

I was just recording something else and realized I’ve got my monitor headphones on a Bluetooth connection!

I wondered why it seemed like I was always playing behind the beat!

 

[la szum]

Met making Metallica swing a little more.

 

[la szum]

I avoid wireless anything like the plague when it comes to guitar. I live in milliseconds.

 

[GTR37]

Need help from the Fractal guys. It has a model of a be100?

I am probably returning a friedman ir-x i bought recently. It has perfect high gain rhythm tone when boosted with ts. Percussive, touch sensitive, responds to volume. the problem i noticed is that when soloing in the upper registers, the notes are very fundamental and lack harmonics. Pinches and screams barely work and sound terrible. Pinch harmonics sound great on lower notes but not higher up. it makes rhythm playing effortless, but soloing sounds one dimensional.

Does the be100 model do the same thing? Ive never played a high gain amp that doesnt scream with a ts in front as a treble boost. Im trying to figure out if this is a friedman thing, or a be100 thing? or an ir-x thing? Or if it is potentially defective.

Ive been listening to all the be100 demos and i havent heard anyone do screamers on them. Many handfuls of demos and the soloing tone sounds very fundamental and basic. It does a percussive evh thing, but not a satch / vai thing.

As you fractal people have access to all the models, is the be100 lacking harmonics in upper registers compared to a 5150?

In the Freidman line you likely want the HBE thats the BE with and extra gain stage and a slight mid emphasis
I don’t believe the IRX does that

 

[State of Epicicity]

Need help from the Fractal guys. It has a model of a be100?

I am probably returning a friedman ir-x i bought recently. It has perfect high gain rhythm tone when boosted with ts. Percussive, touch sensitive, responds to volume. the problem i noticed is that when soloing in the upper registers, the notes are very fundamental and lack harmonics. Pinches and screams barely work and sound terrible. Pinch harmonics sound great on lower notes but not higher up. it makes rhythm playing effortless, but soloing sounds one dimensional.

Does the be100 model do the same thing? Ive never played a high gain amp that doesnt scream with a ts in front as a treble boost. Im trying to figure out if this is a friedman thing, or a be100 thing? or an ir-x thing? Or if it is potentially defective.

Ive been listening to all the be100 demos and i havent heard anyone do screamers on them. Many handfuls of demos and the soloing tone sounds very fundamental and basic. It does a percussive evh thing, but not a satch / vai thing.

As you fractal people have access to all the models, is the be100 lacking harmonics in upper registers compared to a 5150?

I use the various Friedman models with a high master volume setting, usually between 6 and 10, and in those ranges, I get really responsive leads. I haven't been able to pick up the guitar recently to be able to verify that they get the harmonics you're talking about specifically, but to my ears they sound very alive, and unbelievably responsive to riding the volume knobs on the guitar. I always turn up the MV because the Friedman models sound both dark and mid scooped in a bad way to me with low MV. My favorite model is the SmallBox. To me it's like the ultimate booster Marshall tone, without needing a boost.

 

[State of Epicicity]

I'd be curious if an unmodified be100 model can get those kinds of sounds. No telling what the fractal modeling stack will enable you to do.

Just to be clear, I can shred on it. Its a very percussive sound, but also very fundamental. Its as if higher order harmonics were rolled off. It doesn't impact squealies on the low strings, but if you try to do them on the higher strings, they just sound one dimensional and bad, like half of them are missing.

It's kinda incredulous that it cant do them as every high gain tube amp I've ever played can get them. Then I realize this might just be the "friedman sound" where there is a strong upper mid spike, but he cuts off everything above that to leave a very fundamental sound. Or it could be an IR-X thing, where he does it so that it sounds good direct.

Maybe it's the lack of the real power amp section, which Fractal, in contrast, faithfully recreates!

 

[Elric]

I'd be curious if an unmodified be100 model can get those kinds of sounds. No telling what the fractal modeling stack will enable you to do.

Just to be clear, I can shred on it. Its a very percussive sound, but also very fundamental. Its as if higher order harmonics were rolled off. It doesn't impact squealies on the low strings, but if you try to do them on the higher strings, they just sound one dimensional and bad, like half of them are missing.

It's kinda incredulous that it cant do them as every high gain tube amp I've ever played can get them. Then I realize this might just be the "friedman sound" where there is a strong upper mid spike, but he cuts off everything above that to leave a very fundamental sound. Or it could be an IR-X thing, where he does it so that it sounds good direct.

I think you are detecting the notorious Friedman 'smoothness' in the upper mids... that's like his trademark as a designer. Some of his amps don't have that quality (notable examples: JEL, Plex), but that is Dave's personal preference, so if he tuned it they're voiced like that.

If memory serves, the Fractal has a couple of other high gain amp models to pick from. I think.

 

[djd100]

Things to consider...

a) The TS rolls of highs at around 5K which definitely effects high note pinch harmonics.
b) The BE rolls off more gently around 8K post distortion harmonic generation which should effect pinch harmonics much less.
c) Of course the IR and and any LPF'ing would effect this as well if applicable.
d) If slamming the IRX's virtual tube power amp that would make it darker as well.

Try...

a) Cranking the presence switch in the IRX's Editor.
b) Lose the TS, try a more full range boost or no boost.
c) Don't hit the virtual power amp as hard.
d) A different IR and higher LPF settings if applicable.

Good luck!

 

[TSJMajesty]

As you fractal people have access to all the models, is the be100 lacking harmonics in upper registers compared to a 5150?

Give me an example of what notes you'd be playing, and where/which strings, and I can check it out...
Actually, I just played it using the BE V3 and a TS808 OD and got all kinds of pinch harmonics playing the Em pent box in the 12th position, no problem.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

@cragginshred never seems to have any trouble getting pinch harmonics out of any of the Friedman amps he's owned

 

[dk_ace]

Need help from the Fractal guys. It has a model of a be100?

I am probably returning a friedman ir-x i bought recently. It has perfect high gain rhythm tone when boosted with ts. Percussive, touch sensitive, responds to volume. the problem i noticed is that when soloing in the upper registers, the notes are very fundamental and lack harmonics. Pinches and screams barely work and sound terrible. Pinch harmonics sound great on lower notes but not higher up. it makes rhythm playing effortless, but soloing sounds one dimensional.

Does the be100 model do the same thing? Ive never played a high gain amp that doesnt scream with a ts in front as a treble boost. Im trying to figure out if this is a friedman thing, or a be100 thing? or an ir-x thing? Or if it is potentially defective.

Ive been listening to all the be100 demos and i havent heard anyone do screamers on them. Many handfuls of demos and the soloing tone sounds very fundamental and basic. It does a percussive evh thing, but not a satch / vai thing.

As you fractal people have access to all the models, is the be100 lacking harmonics in upper registers compared to a 5150?

Kinda smooth, punchy, fundamental-emphasized tones with just a little bit of hair is kinda the Friedman BE (and therefore IRX) thing as I hear it. It doesn’t really naturally excel at what you seem to be going for. With the right Ir, boost, and EQ settings, I’d expect you could pretty well get there though.

If you want satch, you might get there by hitting the IRX with a DS1. The high end of the ds1 might push it where you want it to go.

For the kind of thing you’re describing, I think 5150 variant or SLO before a BE though. I think you can probably coax it out of a BE, but you’d have a more direct time getting it with a different amp/pedal choice.

IR-J leans more the way I think you might want to go. Check out the Michael Nielsen comparison videos he posted a few weeks ago.

D

 

[James Freeman]

I like the small always-on tuner on top of the screen, the more I use it the more I use it.

 

[dk_ace]

I like the small always-on tuner on top of the screen, the more I use it the more I use it.

I thought that was one of the coolest things about the fm9.

D

 

[JiveTurkey]

Dave knows his stuff but I gave up on using Freidman anything in modeler land long ago. Too much Mesa and JVM goodness to waste time with something that is too this or too that.

 

[Rock Chalk]

Dave knows his stuff but I gave up on using Freidman anything in modeler land long ago. Too much Mesa and JVM goodness to waste time with something that is too this or too that.

I hear ya....there's just something about the JP2C in the Fractal (for me), that's just