Fractal Audio Systems VP4 - Virtual Pedalboard

There's just so much conjecture here.

I'd like to see some real figures on actual part numbers and their performance characteristics before we do any more pointing of fingers at DAC components.

And no, not just nebulous dynamic range citations; because that doesn't tell the full story.
 
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DLC86 said:
A test like that has a great chance of being faulty... and I honestly doubt a consumer line or headphone out can perform better than an audio interface, even if the latter is significantly older
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You just have to test this. You might be surprised.

This all started with the G11 I got a few years ago, which sounded noticeably better than my interface and then an Odyssey G9. I had routed the G9 output to my mixer because the monitor was being fed from multiple computers and it was an easy way to get audio from both of them. To my surprise I discovered that the G9 output sounded more clear and punchy than my old interface. This prompted me to upgrade to an HD8.

Its not some grand conspiracy, mainstream conversion just got really good almost overnight.
 
Shredder777 said:
I absolutely don't believe that because its a guitar signal chain that conversion doesn't matter
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Never said that. My point is that having some better specs doesn't automatically make something sound better or be more transparent as you seemed to infer in your previous posts.
 
jellodog said:
There's just so much nebulous conjecture here.

I'd like to see some real figures on actual part numbers and their performance characteristics before we do any more pointing of fingers at DAC components.

And no, not just nebulous dynamic range citation; because that doesn't tell the full story.
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I agree. But if a number of people say the VP4 is coloring their tone, I tend to believe them. They aren't idiots. Their experience is valid.

Its all relative. I know this sounds hard to believe, but someone could come from a newer Boss or Zoom processor, upgrade to a VP4 and find the cheaper device was more transparent. Thats just because the rapid pace of conversion quality improvements.
 
SonVolt said:
We need a YouTube influencer dedicated to reviewing the hardware of guitar effects. I asked a question here how the tech specs of the VP4 compared to the SDE-3000EVH and got a very vague response from Fractal. When I started asking specifics they bailed.
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Are you serious?
 
Shredder777 said:
I agree. But if a number of people say the VP4 is coloring their tone, I tend to believe them. They aren't idiots. Their experience is valid.
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Neither am I saying there isn't an issue here. I honestly don't know what's going on in the signal chains of people that aren't entirely satisfied.

But you seem so sure it's converters already, and we have no real factual evidence on this specific conversion subject yet.


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I'd personally like to see a higher standard of technical discourse concerning these experiences and few more facts.

The suggestion that FAS wouldn't choose well spec'd ADCs & DACs for their latest hardware, upon which their reputation depends, just isn't in keeping with their MO.
 
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OK. Someone do a ten generation loop through a VP4 and do a null test. Compare that to your interface ten generation without the VP4.

I'm sure the VP4 is perfectly fine, but people have a different frame of reference.
 
yek said:
About expecting a company to provide technical details of comparisons with products from other companies, when a single customer asks for it.
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From Boss? No. From Fractal, or who is known for being very active and transparent with its community? Yes.
 
Shredder777 said:
Thats correct, there are many measures of audio quality, but greater dynamic range from better conversion usually goes hand in hand with lower noise floor and distortion.

There isn't some grand conspiracy. Inexpensive conversion had gotten *much* better over the last couple of years. Even cheap devices today can sound better than pro gear from a decade ago.

I have heard reports of fractal degrading signal quality when used in an amps loop. There are too many variables here and I dont own any fractal to comment on this. All I can say is that converter specs generally correlate with my perception of audio quality. Converter quality sets an upper bound for how good something can sound.

You can test this yourself. If you have a good 4k computer monitor from the past couple years route its audio to a mixer along side your interface output and AB between them. If your interface is 5 years or older you will probably find the monitor sounds better.
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Converter quality has not changed much in the last few years.

There are only two companies that people in the product space use: Cirrus and AKM. We use Cirrus, as do many other brands (Line 6, UAD, NDSP, Kemper IIRC). The VP4 uses the latest "flagship" products from Cirrus as do the Axe-Fx III and FM3/9. I wouldn't be surprised if the ToneX were using the same converters.

The only companies I know that use AKM are Headrush and Roland/Boss.

The only other company that makes a comparable product is ESS and they aren't found in MI products to my knowledge. They're typically used in Hi-Fi gear.

Both Cirrus and AKM suffered recent setbacks that delayed the introduction of new products. AKM had a factory fire and Cirrus' foundry shut down the fab line they were using. So both companies are basically on par as far as performance and product "newness".

Cirrus is coming out with some new parts soon that promise exceptional performance but these aren't in production yet.

Equally important, if not more so, is the analog path driving the A/D converter and buffering the D/A converter. We use premium components and a full-differential topology. Many companies use a single-ended topology as it is less expensive. Many companies also use low-cost op-amps (i.e. CMOS vs. the iPolar and BiFet parts we use).

You keep opining about our products but admit you've never owned or used one. Our products spare no expense on the converter quality and we are highly regarded in that respect.
 
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Shredder777 said:
Its all relative. When you are used to the latest gen of conversion, older devices become objectionable.

If people are saying some piece of gear is coloring their tone, I tend to believe them. But I can't be certain why.

I absolutely don't believe that because its a guitar signal chain that conversion doesn't matter. Everything matters: Conversion quality, latency, strength of cpu, sample rate, internal bit rate, etc. You have to take everything as a whole.

Maybe the VP4 has the most expensive and best sounding reverb algorithms in a pedal? But its also conceivable that some mainstream company is using better conversion, better audio design, and some people will notice that an inexpensive pedal has less affect on their signal chain, even if the reverbs sound shitty in comparison.
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Yes just keep analog dry for anything appropriate.
 
SonVolt said:
We need a YouTube influencer dedicated to reviewing the hardware of guitar effects. I asked a question here how the tech specs of the VP4 compared to the SDE-3000EVH and got a very vague response from Fractal. When I started asking specifics they bailed.

EDIT: I just realized I'm not on Fractal's forum.
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I have no idea what's inside that particular product so I can't comment on the components.

The published specs don't include any SNR or Dynamic Range specs so I can't compare.
 
FractalAudio said:
The only other company that makes a comparable product is ESS and they aren't found in MI products to my knowledge. They're typically used in Hi-Fi gear.
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Thanks for commenting on the subject of converters.

One small observation: I was shopping for a new audio interface last week and I noticed that ESS has started to show up in that segment.

For example the new SSL 2 MKII contains a 32 Bit / 192 kHz ESS AD/DA converter.
And the MOTU UltraLite-mk5 features the Sabre32 ES9026PRO DAC.
 
jellodog said:
Thanks for commenting on the subject of converters.

One small observation: I was shopping for a new audio interface last week and I noticed that ESS has started to show up in that segment.

For example the new SSL 2 MKII contains a 32 Bit / 192 kHz ESS AD/DA converter.
And the MOTU UltraLite-mk5 features the Sabre32 ES9026PRO DAC.
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They have good specs. Good to see them getting some design wins.

The "32-bit" thing still irks me but they're all doing it. There isn't a converter made whose dynamic range is greater than 21 bits.
 
FractalAudio said:
They have good specs. Good to see them getting some design wins.

The "32-bit" thing still irks me but they're all doing it. There isn't a converter made whose dynamic range is greater than 21 bits.
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Indeed. I admit that I was initially fooled by the 32-bit thing and totally reeled in.

I was excited at the prospect of 8 more bits being somehow... "obviously" better. just imagine the supreme quality of it all!

Then I looked into what that meant for digital audio in practical terms; and as you suggest, it's meaningless in real world use at present. Pure marketing BS.
 
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