Fender Tone Master Pro: Episode IV - A New Hope

[GuitarJon]

well given the extreme amounts of presence needed to get close to the real amps, and the flubby/muddy sound, it really screams that something goofy is going on with the power amp modelling. Not really hearing anything here that suggests the modelling is better than Headrush quality.

Was hoping for a big improvement in the high gain modelling but it’s not really any better than where it sounded before.

These kinds of amps don't get much coloration from the poweramp. That's why they sound good at lower levels. I see your point, but even if the poweramp was too dark, the response of the preamp would still have to be more tight, with more string definition etc. So we can't blame this solely on the poweramp modeling.

 

[SKU]

Some of these clips from Rick aren't playing in the embedded IG post, you might have to actually click the link and listen in IG to hear all of them. His Justice and Gojira clips sound excellent, but they don't seem to be playing in this post.

This sounds very good! Points taken for the awful Instagram format unfortunately.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

These kinds of amps don't get much coloration from the poweramp. That's why they sound good at lower levels. I see your point, but even if the poweramp was too dark, the response of the preamp would still have to be more tight, with more string definition etc. So we can't blame this solely on the poweramp modeling.

Strongly disagree there Jon. The poweramp is affected by the impedance curve, so the entire behaviour of the presence and depth/resonance will be affected in turn. That’s regardless of whether the master is at 0.5 or 10 (except in PPIMV amps where the amount of NFB is affected by the master level).

Further more, having a big resonant bass peak or presence lift from the negative feedback will cause the poweramp to run out of headroom - that’s why we like to run the master low. It’s not because the poweramp is flat - it’s because there is more headroom to allow more bass and presence through.

TMP clearly doesn’t have the resonant low end or presence peak working right f that’s why it’s dull. Same is true for Amplitube’s Rectifiers and some Beainworx/Nembrini stuff.

It’s also the reason you have to run your presence higher with the red 7 load box than you would with a 4x12 cab. The impedance affects the power amp response and sounds darker (in that case).

 

[GuitarJon]

Strongly disagree there Jon. The poweramp is affected by the impedance curve, so the entire behaviour of the presence and depth/resonance will be affected in turn. That’s regardless of whether the master is at 0.5 or 10 (except in PPIMV amps where the amount of NFB is affected by the master level).

Further more, having a big resonant bass peak or presence lift from the negative feedback will cause the poweramp to run out of headroom - that’s why we like to run the master low. It’s not because the poweramp is flat - it’s because there is more headroom to allow more bass and presence through.

TMP clearly doesn’t have the resonant low end or presence peak working right f that’s why it’s dull. Same is true for Amplitube’s Rectifiers and some Beainworx/Nembrini stuff.

It’s also the reason you have to run your presence higher with the red 7 load box than you would with a 4x12 cab. The impedance affects the power amp response and sounds darker (in that case).

I totally agree! I'm talking about the input response, so the tightness of the distortion etc, not so much about the overall EQ curve. When a preamp sounds super tight, it's not going to get very flubby fast, unless you'd crank your poweramp up way too high. I don't think we're disagreeing here much

 

[MirrorProfiles]

I totally agree! I'm talking about the input response, so the tightness of the distortion etc, not so much about the overall EQ curve. When a preamp sounds super tight, it's not going to get very flubby fast, unless you'd crank your poweramp up way too high. I don't think we're disagreeing here much

I guess we’re saying there are problems with both sections of the modelling, in which case I totally agree!

 

[GuitarJon]

I guess we’re saying there are problems with both sections of the modelling, in which case I totally agree!

Totally! :) It just depends on what aspect of the tone you're focusing on, but we're definitely on the same page!

 

[alexone]

well given the extreme amounts of presence needed to get close to the real amps, and the flubby/muddy sound, it really screams that something goofy is going on with the power amp modelling. Not really hearing anything here that suggests the modelling is better than Headrush quality.

Was hoping for a big improvement in the high gain modelling but it’s not really any better than where it sounded before.

Haven't we all known for 2 months that a comparison with a third party IR is biased against the TMP? The SIC has not yet been properly implemented.

Without having made an A/B comparison and in a completely subjective way (I didn't buy a modeler to make comparisons) I find that the British 800 sounds better with this update. To be tested in real use.

 

[eggpl@nt]

Haven't we all known for 2 months that a comparison with a third party IR is biased against the TMP? The SIC has not yet been properly implemented.

Without having made an A/B comparison and in a completely subjective way (I didn't buy a modeler to make comparisons) I find that the British 800 sounds better with this update. To be tested in real use.

There was a glimmer of hope that Fender fixed this with their update. It’s worth highlighting that the issue remains.

 

[MixMinisterMike]

It might be more useful for Jon to use the TMP's onboard cab for both the real amps and the TMP models, instead of an IR. Then we could see the real A/B changes from this update. At least until the IR curve issue has been fixed.

 

[OrganicZed]

Haven't we all known for 2 months that a comparison with a third party IR is biased against the TMP? The SIC has not yet been properly implemented.

Without having made an A/B comparison and in a completely subjective way (I didn't buy a modeler to make comparisons) I find that the British 800 sounds better with this update. To be tested in real use.

Jon isn't loading a 3rd party IR into the TMP. He is running it into an external IR loading device.

Edit: see Jon's post below.

 

[GuitarJon]

Jon isn't loading a 3rd party IR into the TMP. He is running it into an external IR loading device.

For this new comparison I just loaded the IR onto the TMP cab block. Shouldn't make a difference tbh.

 

[MirrorProfiles]

With the TMP cabs here

 

[jellodog]

For this new comparison I just loaded the IR onto the TMP cab block. Shouldn't make a difference tbh.

I think it might make a difference.

IIRC from discussions at TOP™, the built-in Fender cab IRs have some sort of impedance curve associated with them within the TMP; so 3rd party IRs used with the cab block will not yield the expected result. Essentially, 3rd party IRs don't work properly with the TMP right now.

Will probably be addressed in a future update.

Perhaps that's no longer the case though. Does anybody else remember that discussion?

 

[MixMinisterMike]

For this new comparison I just loaded the IR onto the TMP cab block. Shouldn't make a difference tbh.

It makes a difference due to a bug or issue with the lack of speaker impedance curve being applied when IRs are used. It needs to be fixed by Fender but it's at least partially responsible for the "flat" unrealistic response.

 

[la szum]

Who keeps revisiting the Turd Master to see if it is still a Turd or not????

Turds go here. Flush and forget!

 

[la szum]

I think it might make a difference.

IIRC from discussions at TOP™, the built-in Fender cab IRs have some sort of impedance curve associated with them within the TMP; so 3rd party IRs used with the cab block will not yield the expected result. Essentially, 3rd party IRs don't work properly with the TMP right now.

Will probably be addressed in a future update.

Perhaps that's no longer the case though. Does anybody else remember that discussion?

Yup. My first thought----after flushing the loo.

It was Cliff. He suggested that FMIC would have to rework their entire methodology,
and that what needs to be fixed is not going to get fixed by them until they realize
the immense error of their ways of tying Impendance Curves to IRs instead of to the
Power Amp Modeling.

I seem to recall him saying that the IC is not a property of the Cab/Speaker, but is
a property of the Power Amp, as the Speaker pushes/pulls with the Power Amp.

Don't quote me.

 

[jellodog]

Yup. My first thought----after flushing the loo.

It was Cliff. He suggested that FMIC would have to rework their entire methodology,
and that what needs to be fixed is not going to get fixed by them until they realize
the immense error of their ways of tying Impendance Curves to IRs instead of to the
Power Amp Modeling.

I seem to recall him saying that the IC is not a property of the Cab/Speaker, but is
a property of the Power Amp, as the Speaker pushes/pulls with the Power Amp.

Don't quote me.

That's what I recall too, but I also recall Fender reps acknowledging that they would have to do some work in this area in order to accommodate 3rd party IRs.

 

[la szum]

And I also recall Cliff mentioning that was not the appropriate/valid solution either.

The issue will persist with the flawed placement of ICs in the IRs and not in the Power
Amp Modeling.

 

[ian_dissonance]

If it doesn’t punch in the same class as other devices in the price range with common IR people should know that. Having to use the factory cabs because somebody goofed in the modeling stage doesn’t really make for a fair comparison, either.

 

[jellodog]

If it doesn’t punch in the same class as other devices in the price range with common IR people should know that. Having to use the factory cabs because somebody goofed in the modeling stage doesn’t really make for a fair comparison, either.

Indeed. The "Pro" designation certainly leads to an expectation that 3rd party IRs would work as expected, at the very least.

This issue had caused no end of problems in comparison videos since launch AFAICT. It's fundamental.