Fender Tone Master FR-10 and FR-12 "FRFR" cabs

jellodog said:
I concede that on stage, nobody would ever notice or care [about the hiss].
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That's what I bought the FR-12 for; a lightweight solution for jamming with friends or sitting in using the FM9 for both clean and gain tones.

A while back I took a train from Philly to Vermont to jam with some members of my old Brooklyn Hardcore/Funk Band (Helmet and John McLaughlin meet James Brown/Funkadelic) and the FM9/FR-12 would have been perfect for that since I had to haul gear up and down stairs at the train stations. I specifically had memories of that trip in mind when I ordered one and will do similar train trips to NYC when I jam with the same guys in the future.

For my Jazz gigs I still plan to use tube amps with the FM9 for effects only. I'm in the process of picking up a Rivera Suprema Jazz Recording 1x12 55 watt combo . According to Paul, "The Single channel Jazz Suprema was completely dialed in for Archtops from the ground up!" I'm hoping that will be my main gigging amp going forward with the FM9 in the effects loop. I love the Rivera clean tones and having one behind me on stage would warm my heart.

For practicing at home, at late night volume levels where the hiss would be an issue, there may be better options than the FR-12 for amplifying the FM9 like my Presonus Eris 4.5 monitors.

It's great that thanks to Lysander we now have a fix for those of us who want to use the FR-12 for playing quietly at home. I'm hoping that the hiss won't be so objectionable that it would ruin my home playing experience. I'd be real hesitant to do the chip swap and void the warranty since I have other amplification options for quiet playing but if I'm head over heels in love with how the FR-12 works with the FM9, and decide that I do want to play it at home frequently, I'll give the chip swap serious consideration.

But I bought it as an inexpensive grab and go option for amplifying the FM9 when playing somewhere other than at home and by all accounts it's fine for that as it is.
 
Lysander said:
Honestly, i don't want to second-guess the whys and hows going into the preamp's design. *I* would've never designed the EQ stack the way Fender did for the FR-10 and 12, but things are the way they are for a reason - and such reasons are never just technical.

The problem with redesigns is that the cost equation goes just beyond just engineering and parts count. For an operation the size of Fender this involves everything from re-documenting the assembly process, to a new BOM (affecting inventory and purchasing), training workers, etc. This is the kind of effort you undertake for a MKII release.



I don't think you're far off. From what i've seen, it's quite evident that the EQ section has been fine-tuned for the speaker/enclosure used in these amps, to get an experience similar to dialing the tone knobs on a "normal" guitar combo. It's still unnecessarily convoluted IMHO; all of this could be achieved with half (or less) the gain stages on the current design.
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As a (retired) EE, I am having a difficult time grasping why the heck 12 opamps are needed for the eq in the first place. Kinda boggles my mind.

A state variable filter circuit provides 2nd order low, high, bandpass, and a notch, with independent Q, with 4 opamps. For example: https://sound-au.com/articles/state-variable.htm I designed and built a parametric equalizer for myself many years ago using SVF and it worked very well. All I can say is Fender musta designed one heckuva eq section!:bonk

Mayhap they (incorrectly) implemented some sort of analog IR, similar to what Tech21 does with stacked filters? In my experience, Tech21 stuff doesn't have hiss issues.

Anyway, hiss level on mine is very low, even with cut at minimum and volume at max. No way anybody would hear it in a club or winery gig.
 
ucnick said:
As a (retired) EE, I am having a difficult time grasping why the heck 12 opamps are needed for the eq in the first place. Kinda boggles my mind.
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You and me both :cry:

ucnick said:
Mayhap they (incorrectly) implemented some sort of analog IR, similar to what Tech21 does with stacked filters? In my experience, Tech21 stuff doesn't have hiss issues.
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No, not even. A single quad opamp (TL084) is used for the the 3-band tone stack, and then there's two more ICs just for the hi-cut knob... which is a -12dB second order filter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . There's a lot of weird stuff in that preamp elsewhere, like a couple transistors in Darlington configuration boosting the voltage going to the opamps to ~37v (!!!), and i can't find a single hint as of why. You can remove those and the amp will sound and function identically as it does stock.

A guy in the Fractal Forums went all in into this rabbit hole, and is now designing his own replacement preamp board: 6 opamps for the whole show.

v2ish.png
 
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I saw a Fender FR10 today at the local music store, and wow it's a beaut!

My logical mind knows I need a monutor-type "FRFR" like a YorkVille YXL12P that will do good for me and the band with multiple inputs and features to suit a band, but my HEART yearns for that sweet amp-look of a Fender Tone Master FR12!
 
I would like to get my hands on one of these, but here in Germany there sold out. At least you don't get any at the bigger music stores. All are saying on order. 🤷🏼‍♂️
 
Lysander said:
You and me both :cry:



No, not even. A single quad opamp (TL084) is used for the the 3-band tone stack, and then there's two more ICs just for the hi-cut knob... which is a -12dB second order filter ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . There's a lot of weird stuff in that preamp elsewhere, like a couple transistors in Darlington configuration boosting the voltage going to the opamps to ~37v (!!!), and i can't find a single hint as of why. You can remove those and the amp will sound and function identically as it does stock.

A guy in the Fractal Forums went all in into this rabbit hole, and is now designing his own replacement preamp board: 6 opamps for the whole show.

View attachment 15902
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Wow. You mean two quad opamp packages for the high cut? Really?That's just... weird. And sad.

I don't have the schematic but it sure sounds like a clusterf**k to me. VERY surprised no one caught it in the design review. Even though they may be intrinsically cheap, all the extra electronics increases costs. And the 37V boost just sounds like someone did some "copy 'n paste" design work. And +/- 18.5V for supply rails? Just nuts, total overkill.:chef

The redesigned board is a cool idea. They'd probably sell.

I once had a summer intern, near-NCG, working for me one summer. Did some really odd stuff with designs. My personal favorite was running the output of a high gain section next to it's input. That sort of stuff. He liked to do the extra unecessary opamp sections as well, which made me chuckle, and which is why I suspect a NCG. I used to joke he was trying to keep the manufacturers in business...:facepalm
 
Caveat Emptor! Just got confirmation that these amps are noisy, to the point that Fender is now (quietly) shipping FR-10/12s with what's essentially the noise reduction mod i came up with three months ago... straight from the factory 😥

Here's a "factory modded" FR-10...

fr10.jpeg


...and FR-12:

fr12.jpeg


Note that there was never an official acknowledgment of these amps having this issue, and if you buy a FR-10/12 today there's simply no way to tell which version you'll receive. As far as i could gather, there's absolutely nothing differentiating these two preamp board "revisions" apart; the only way to tell for sure is to open the amp up.
 
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