Fender Tone Master FR-10 and FR-12 "FRFR" cabs

[adriang]

Just stepping out of the shadows with my first post (been reading threads here for a while). Wanted to say, my FR12 was delivered today so I got to compare it to my CLRs (Neo Mk IIs) and KRK Rokit 6 monitors. First impression was build quality is really good, it definitely can be taken on gigs without worrying too much about it falling apart.

When powering it up, I could hear the inevitable hiss was there, and I found it was easy to manage by just turning the Hi cut up to 50% (as mentioned by others already) when I wasn't playing. Whilst I was playing I could hardly hear the hiss (I was using clean to heavy tones). So I think for me personally, rather than mod it, I will just give the Hi Cut a quick twist when I know I won't be picking up my guitar.
Note: I'm not saying the hiss can be ignored in a smaller room (I couldn't ignore it), I'm saying it was annoying me however turning up the Hi Cut was a very good solution (almost like putting a tube amp on stand by).

Following on from that, the BMT adjustments are really awesome, however in most cases I ended up leaving them flat because all my presets are dialled in on my CLRs.

In comparison to the CLRs, the FR12 definitely has a more cab like sound, but it wasn't as strong as I expected it to be. I do love the CLR's ability to remain neutral when obsessing around tonal adjustments, but I missed the "in the room" feel and I think the FR12 gets me a little closer to that (although not quite the same as a real amp). I was quite surprised how well the FR12 held up to the CLRs on all of my presets, and the factory ones too. It feels pretty accurate (aside from the known cab like edge it gives), so when creating presets with it you would just have to slightly adjust for that.

As this is only day one, and I was on/off the FR12 the whole time, I don't think I have enough of a feel as to whether it will be good enough to replace my CLRs or not. Having said that, it was a lot of fun to play through, and I was blown away at how big some of the presets sounded through it.

I think I am going to keep it!

Cheers,
Adrian.

 

[jellodog]

Good to see you here @adriang ! Thanks for your thoughts. Great first post

I'm sure @norminal will be along in a while with some "questions".

 

[Byrdman]

Just stepping out of the shadows with my first post (been reading threads here for a while). Wanted to say, my FR12 was delivered today so I got to compare it to my CLRs (Neo Mk IIs) and KRK Rokit 6 monitors. First impression was build quality is really good, it definitely can be taken on gigs without worrying too much about it falling apart.

When powering it up, I could hear the inevitable hiss was there, and I found it was easy to manage by just turning the Hi cut up to 50% (as mentioned by others already) when I wasn't playing. Whilst I was playing I could hardly hear the hiss (I was using clean to heavy tones). So I think for me personally, rather than mod it, I will just give the Hi Cut a quick twist when I know I won't be picking up my guitar.
Note: I'm not saying the hiss can be ignored in a smaller room (I couldn't ignore it), I'm saying it was annoying me however turning up the Hi Cut was a very good solution (almost like putting a tube amp on stand by).

Following on from that, the BMT adjustments are really awesome, however in most cases I ended up leaving them flat because all my presets are dialled in on my CLRs.

In comparison to the CLRs, the FR12 definitely has a more cab like sound, but it wasn't as strong as I expected it to be. I do love the CLR's ability to remain neutral when obsessing around tonal adjustments, but I missed the "in the room" feel and I think the FR12 gets me a little closer to that (although not quite the same as a real amp). I was quite surprised how well the FR12 held up to the CLRs on all of my presets, and the factory ones too. It feels pretty accurate (aside from the known cab like edge it gives), so when creating presets with it you would just have to slightly adjust for that.

As this is only day one, and I was on/off the FR12 the whole time, I don't think I have enough of a feel as to whether it will be good enough to replace my CLRs or not. Having said that, it was a lot of fun to play through, and I was blown away at how big some of the presets sounded through it.

I think I am going to keep it!

Cheers,
Adrian.

Thank you for the info. Let us know what you think after you have more time on it and welcome to TGF!

I went looking to check out either the 10 or 12 at my local GC 2 weeks ago and they were out and I didnt bother to ask when they would be back. in stock.

 

[mbenigni]

Yes, they could, of course. Do you honestly think they will? Reducing noise (which is not universally perceived as problematic) would require a complete redesign of the filter section (not a big deal by itself), but which would then necessitate a respin of the PCB layout (which can require multiple iterations), engineering change documents, a new BOM, changes to purchasing instructions, raw materials inventory, etc.. To what end? To shut up a handful of self-appointed critics?

No, not really. tl;dr, switching to Burr-Brown IC just to reduce the noise floor would significantly increase production costs. Those parts are ~12x more expensive than the very common TL084s used in the FR-10/12.

A chip swap is not the solution; they just need to redesign the thing. 12 opamp stages for a EQ stack is... excessive.

Will Fender ever do this, though? Wouldn't hold my breath. Maybe for a MKII board, way down the line.

Putting this all together... I have questions.

Primarily: If the existing EQ design is "excessive" (and perhaps in some ways antiquated?), than could it potentially represent a win/win cost-savings over the long term, thus addressing jay mitchell's rhetorical questions above? Even with noisier, cheaper op-amp packages, if you need fewer of them, and less of everything else, could it be a wash, or better?

As for redesign, respins, documentation, etc., I would guess this would be relatively straightforward for FMIC, who probably use a more modern EQ circuit in many other products (and who likely have established internal methodologies for revisioning these designs year on year.)

 

[aflynt]

Putting this all together... I have questions.

Primarily: If the existing EQ design is "excessive" (and perhaps in some ways antiquated?), than could it potentially represent a win/win cost-savings over the long term, thus addressing jay mitchell's rhetorical questions above? Even with noisier, cheaper op-amp packages, if you need fewer of them, and less of everything else, could it be a wash, or better?

As for redesign, respins, documentation, etc., I would guess this would be relatively straightforward for FMIC, who probably use a more modern EQ circuit in many other products (and who likely have established internal methodologies for revisioning these designs year on year.)

I'm not an EE, so take this with that in mind. My hunch is that there's something unique going on in the cut circuit that Fender wants to retain. When I was messing around with swapping op-amps, it appeared that the bulk of the noticeable hiss was coming from the op amps in that part of the circuit. Having used the amp for a while I've found that the cut control is actually the most useful thing on there. If that's the case, then just redesigning the Bandaxal tone circuit wouldn't buy them much more than lower parts count. The hiss would still be about the same.

-Aaron

 

[Lysander]

Primarily: If the existing EQ design is "excessive" (and perhaps in some ways antiquated?), than could it potentially represent a win/win cost-savings over the long term, thus addressing jay mitchell's rhetorical questions above? Even with noisier, cheaper op-amp packages, if you need fewer of them, and less of everything else, could it be a wash, or better?

Honestly, i don't want to second-guess the whys and hows going into the preamp's design. *I* would've never designed the EQ stack the way Fender did for the FR-10 and 12, but things are the way they are for a reason - and such reasons are never just technical.

The problem with redesigns is that the cost equation goes just beyond just engineering and parts count. For an operation the size of Fender this involves everything from re-documenting the assembly process, to a new BOM (affecting inventory and purchasing), training workers, etc. This is the kind of effort you undertake for a MKII release.

My hunch is that there's something unique going on in the cut circuit that Fender wants to retain. When I was messing around with swapping op-amps, it appeared that the bulk of the noticeable hiss was coming from the op amps in that part of the circuit. Having used the amp for a while I've found that the cut control is actually the most useful thing on there.

I don't think you're far off. From what i've seen, it's quite evident that the EQ section has been fine-tuned for the speaker/enclosure used in these amps, to get an experience similar to dialing the tone knobs on a "normal" guitar combo. It's still unnecessarily convoluted IMHO; all of this could be achieved with half (or less) the gain stages on the current design.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Is hiss gate a product of people who play at sub-bedroom levels still wanting the old Amp where I'm at experience? I still have yet to experience it on mine but that could because I play things a bit more at volume

 

[aflynt]

Is hiss gate a product of people who play at sub-bedroom levels still wanting the old Amp where I'm at experience? I still have yet to experience it on mine but that could because I play things a bit more at volume

I think it's a function of the noise floor in the listening environment combined with how the amp is positioned, how the controls are set and how much high end hearing loss the listener has suffered thus far in their years of eardrum abuse. I think it has less to do with how loud you actually play it. You only notice it when you're not playing.

-Aaron

 

[JiveTurkey]

how much high end hearing loss the listener has suffered thus far in their years of eardrum abuse

 

[jay mitchell]

Primarily: If the existing EQ design is "excessive" (and perhaps in some ways antiquated?), than could it potentially represent a win/win cost-savings over the long term, thus addressing jay mitchell's rhetorical questions above? Even with noisier, cheaper op-amp packages, if you need fewer of them, and less of everything else, could it be a wash, or better?

As for redesign, respins, documentation, etc., I would guess this would be relatively straightforward for FMIC, who probably use a more modern EQ circuit in many other products (and who likely have established internal methodologies for revisioning these designs year on year.)

These are points you should make at the next product-planning meeting at Fender. It's pointless arguing them anywhere else. Just sayin'....

 

[jellodog]

I think it's a function of the noise floor in the listening environment combined with how the amp is positioned, how the controls are set and how much high end hearing loss the listener has suffered

This. Pretty sure they all sound the same, despite the theories that they do not.

I play at home. In my preferred largish living room for playing, the hiss is barely noticeable unless I lean close to adjust the modeller or the FR-12 EQ controls. That room is open plan and so there is background noise from the refrigerator in the kitchen and air circulation.

If that room isn't available I play in a smaller room upstairs that is very quiet and has no background noise. In that room the hiss is more noticeable, but it's not so bad that I can't live with it and I forget about it once I start playing. The FR-12 noise floor is not as bad as some 1960s design tube amps that I've owned.

The frustrating thing though is that I expect solid state amplification to have a very low noise floor and know it is possible. For example my 200w Quilter Mach 3 was utterly silent at idle. It's knowing this (that SS amps can be designed to be extremely quiet) that is more annoying than the small amount of hiss itself! I expect more from the EQ circuit designers.

I concede that on stage, nobody would ever notice or care.

 

[jellodog]

These are points you should make at the next product-planning meeting at Fender. It's pointless arguing them anywhere else. Just sayin'....

Fair point. On the other hand, isn't this a gear discussion forum?

 

[Lysander]

This. Pretty sure they all sound the same, despite the theories that they do not.

+100. I cracked the thing open, and there's nothing in the FR-12/10 that would account for varying noise floors. The preamp is convoluted, but quite straightforward in design.

Different experiences can be anything from running the amp at different levels, with different high-cut settings (it's not a center-neutral knob, guys!) to just particular tolerances to noise. If it doesn't bother you, awesome, but the hiss is there. It can be measured.

The frustrating thing though is that I expect solid state amplification to have a very low noise floor and know it is possible.

Aaaand another +100. The power amp section, for example, is really good quality and dead quiet without an input.

What pisses me off is when people bring "welp, my 1972 100w tube head is just as noisy!" as a gotcha. There're a shitton of cheap PA speakers in that power range which manage to have zero hiss.

 

[mbenigni]

These are points you should make at the next product-planning meeting at Fender. It's pointless arguing them anywhere else. Just sayin'....

90% of what we discuss here is pointless. Including your last reply; including this one; and so on. We're just having a chat.

 

[jay mitchell]

90% of what we discuss here is pointless. Including your last reply; including this one; and so on. We're just having a chat.

Let's chat about something interesting then....

 

[mbenigni]

Let's chat about something interesting then....

To whom? I think discussing the possibility/ probability/ cost/ etc. of improving a product that we already mostly like is reasonably interesting, and certainly on point in this forum. Last I checked, it's what we do here most of the time.

 

[Vic Winters]

Just stepping out of the shadows with my first post (been reading threads here for a while). Wanted to say, my FR12 was delivered today so I got to compare it to my CLRs (Neo Mk IIs) and KRK Rokit 6 monitors. First impression was build quality is really good, it definitely can be taken on gigs without worrying too much about it falling apart.

When powering it up, I could hear the inevitable hiss was there, and I found it was easy to manage by just turning the Hi cut up to 50% (as mentioned by others already) when I wasn't playing. Whilst I was playing I could hardly hear the hiss (I was using clean to heavy tones). So I think for me personally, rather than mod it, I will just give the Hi Cut a quick twist when I know I won't be picking up my guitar.
Note: I'm not saying the hiss can be ignored in a smaller room (I couldn't ignore it), I'm saying it was annoying me however turning up the Hi Cut was a very good solution (almost like putting a tube amp on stand by).

Following on from that, the BMT adjustments are really awesome, however in most cases I ended up leaving them flat because all my presets are dialled in on my CLRs.

In comparison to the CLRs, the FR12 definitely has a more cab like sound, but it wasn't as strong as I expected it to be. I do love the CLR's ability to remain neutral when obsessing around tonal adjustments, but I missed the "in the room" feel and I think the FR12 gets me a little closer to that (although not quite the same as a real amp). I was quite surprised how well the FR12 held up to the CLRs on all of my presets, and the factory ones too. It feels pretty accurate (aside from the known cab like edge it gives), so when creating presets with it you would just have to slightly adjust for that.

As this is only day one, and I was on/off the FR12 the whole time, I don't think I have enough of a feel as to whether it will be good enough to replace my CLRs or not. Having said that, it was a lot of fun to play through, and I was blown away at how big some of the presets sounded through it.

I think I am going to keep it!

Cheers,
Adrian.

Glad to see they're shipping. I'm currently in week 6 of back order purgatory.

 

[jellodog]

Glad to see they're shipping. I'm currently in week 6 of back order purgatory.

I'd be surprised if you don't like it!

I feel it's worth saying again that despite the hiss discussions here (and non-coaxial design), these FR powered cabs are very pleasing to play and excellent value at this price point. I hope we haven't dampened your excitement in any way. Mine is definitely a keeper.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

To whom? I think discussing the possibility/ probability/ cost/ etc. of improving a product that we already mostly like is reasonably interesting, and certainly on point in this forum. Last I checked, it's what we do here most of the time.

NNNEEEEEEEEEXXXTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mbenigni]

Is hiss gate a product of people who play at sub-bedroom levels still wanting the old Amp where I'm at experience?

The same people who throw hissy fits about clicky footswitches, I'll bet.