Boss ME-90 Multi-Fx

[yeky83]

As a software engineer for the last decade, can confirm.

A logical fallacy in Sascha's definition would be that, even if it was a unit that had no programmability and could only be used in manual mode, the three knobs for each model aren't always labelled correctly and thereby fail WYSIWYG. For example, for pitch shift:

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Reductio Ad Absurdum? Sascha, you want to clarify?

So are you saying the ME-90 is not WYSIWYG and @Digital Igloo was wrong? Huh, the plot thickens.

I get it

But do you see it?

 

[Whizzinby]

There may be the technical def for WYSIWYG that may differ from the conventional (consumer) understanding of it, but I think as it relates to most average joes it means the values of the indicators/knobs/sliders/whatever are always accurate to the setting of the parameter you’re using. So if the gain indicator/knob/slider/whatever is on 3 and then I flip to a scene/preset where the gain is on 5, but the physical indicator/knob/slider/whatever remains on 3, it is not WYSIWYG in the practical sense of the term. (From a consumer perspective)

 

[Lysander]

Guys, you're all splitting hairs over a concept which makes very little sense in the guitar gear world.

 

[Boudoir Guitar]

Guys, you're all splitting hairs over a concept which makes very little sense in the guitar gear world.

Yes, forums are definitely the place where we only get passionate about things that relate to the broader guitar gear world, instead of our own tiny personal battles on meaningless ant hills that we are willing to die to protect :) .

 

[Lysander]

instead of our own tiny personal battles on meaningless ant hills that we are will to die to protect

Hey now, why did you have to make it personal?

 

[ragingplatypi]

Guys, you're all splitting hairs over a concept which makes very little sense in the guitar gear world.

It’s not really splitting a hair. It’s an unraveling of the fibers that make up a strand of hair.

 

[Sascha Franck]

So I don't get your argument. You are now saying there is some WYSIWYG in both manual and preset mode. Yet you're also providing conflicting definitions on the term

No, all I was ever saying is, that apart from manual mode, the MS 90 is as far away from being WYSIWYG as anything else.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Not to mention, even a standard compressor pedal isn't WYSIWYG. I've never seen "Sustain" as a parameter in a studio compressor. So is the Boss CS-2 not WYSIWYG?

Hasn't got anything to do with the matter. This is nomenclature.

Finally, I have to ask, the Boss ME-90 is not WYSIWYG..... compared to what? The platonic ideal? The AxeFX3? The ME-5? The electrode signals when I got an ECG?

Very obviously, *the* WYSIWYG role model would be a pedal with all parameters layed out in front of you all the time, displaying the exact value they're sounding at.

In digital amp modeling land, so far the closest I've stumbled across was the VAmp. And in my book that's still something I'd pay big bucks for if it came with proper sound and a more complete set of parameters.

The Helix parameter knobs are a great digital representation of WYSIWYG, too, but there's still too many things missing.

Zoom also did a partially fantastic job, the downside being that they're, well, Zoom.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Guys, you're all splitting hairs over a concept which makes very little sense in the guitar gear world.

Pardon? Why does WYSIWYG make little sense?

 

[Whizzinby]

@Sascha Franck did you buy all the moving-slider-thingy pedals from Chase Bliss? Seems right up your alley

 

[Lysander]

Pardon? Why does WYSIWYG make little sense?

Does your modeler magically transforms into an amp every time you change a patch? Because if not, what you see is not what you get.

Being pedantic, WYSIWYG refers to software which allows you to edit content, and see the generated output as a finished product, in real time. Not exactly sure how this applies to guitar multi-fx units, knobs or not.

Anyway, this hair has been split thin enough

 

[Digital Igloo]

It's like going up to an Evolutionary Biologist and yelling "Gotcha! You said scientific theory! I knew it—it's just a theory!"

So for example, WYSIWYG means that there's dedicated Bass, Mid, and Treble knobs, not that those BMT knobs show the correct values...? Huh.

In hardware MI design circles, it's a very broad term for embracing a larger number of dedicated entry mechanisms (to improve the discoverability portion of UI/UX, generally for less sophisticated users, but sometimes for faster sound creation, like with knobby synths) as opposed to LCD or menu-focused editing. It's not an end-all-be-all descriptor, nor is it some sort of goal, nor does it have any set rules. One might surmise the "S" means more "seeing all the parameters" and less "seeing every parameter's current value at all times," but I'm not entirely sure where its usage came from.

In software design circles, WYSIWYG means something very different.

For some bizarre reason, one particular person with little to no MI product design background insists on repeatedly "but AcKchUaLEE"ing me, and thus far, he's been empirically wrong... <doing the math> 100% of the time. Points for perseverance, I guess?

 

[Sascha Franck]

Does your modeler magically transforms into an amp every time you change a patch? Because if not, what you see is not what you get.

Didn't realize you were more into a splitting hairs p***ing match rather than talking about realistic scenarios.

 

[Sascha Franck]

For some bizarre reason, one particular person with little to no MI product design background insists on repeatedly "but AcKchUaLEE"ing me, and thus far, he's been empirically wrong... <doing the math> 100% of the time. Points for perseverance, I guess?

I rather hope you're not referring to me...

 

[JiveTurkey]

How could something be more WSGWTFHS than this?

 

[Moe45673]

So are you saying the ME-90 is not WYSIWYG and @Digital Igloo was wrong? Huh, the plot thickens.

No, I am not saying my point of view. I'm just trying to narrow down what Sascha means by WYSIWYG as it appears to me that he has one definition and nothing meets it, except for the stuff he likes because arbitrary reasons. So I'm trying to figure out what he means.

But do you see it?

You bet your big blue balls I see it or my name isn't Mr Magoo

 

[Moe45673]

Hasn't got anything to do with the matter. This is nomenclature.

Has everything to do with the matter. If I want to put the ratio at 4:1 with a soft knee at -24DBu and have release time of 130 milliseconds, where do I set the sustain knob? That's not a matter of nomenclature.

Very obviously, *the* WYSIWYG role model would be a pedal with all parameters layed out in front of you all the time, displaying the exact value they're sounding at.

So the platonic ideal.

In digital amp modeling land, so far the closest I've stumbled across was the VAmp. And in my book that's still something I'd pay big bucks for if it came with proper sound and a more complete set of parameters.

That's a fair point. What is it that you like so much about it, aside from the LEDs around the knobs?

The Helix parameter knobs are a great digital representation of WYSIWYG, too, but there's still too many things missing.

Zoom also did a partially fantastic job, the downside being that they're, well, Zoom.

I like the Zoom G5n, did a great job of mixing manual and memory preset mode. Aside from the (unsolvable?) issue of having to scroll through the signal chain though, what I didn't like was the slight lag between twisting a knob and the parameter updating. On the ME-80, you twist a knob and it changes instantaneously, like an oldfashioned analog pedal. That to me is much more WYSIWYG..... What you see isn't hidden behind layers of digital transformations but right there in front of you. (Boss may have layers of digital transformations, but they give the illusion that it's not there)

 

[Bob Zaod]

I like tacos

 

[Sascha Franck]

Has everything to do with the matter. If I want to put the ratio at 4:1 with a soft knee at -24DBu and have release time of 130 milliseconds, where do I set the sustain knob? That's not a matter of nomenclature.

Got nothing, absolutely nothing to do with WYSIWYG, though. Technically, many knobs on an electronic unit are doing multiple things. So you'd never had WYSIWYG at all...

What is it that you like so much about it, aside from the LEDs around the knobs?

- Instant parameter information.
- Instant tweakability without parameter jumps or parameter "catch ups".

Pretty much enough for me to be worth a lot.

For me, all that would be even better along with a global parameter/block function, but we should possibly not open that can of worms right here...

On the ME-80, you twist a knob and it changes instantaneously, like an oldfashioned analog pedal. That to me is much more WYSIWYG..... What you see isn't hidden behind layers of digital transformations but right there in front of you.

I'm absolutely aware of all that, but all WYSIWYG is going ^poof* once you're using the programmability. As with most units (apart from some, for example those I mentioned already).

what I didn't like was the slight lag between twisting a knob and the parameter updating.

As I said, it's Zoom being Zoom... the initial idea is great, though and their MS-50G is an incredible gem even these days, both in terms of functionality and user friendliness (given that tiny form factor).

 

[laxu]

There may be the technical def for WYSIWYG that may differ from the conventional (consumer) understanding of it, but I think as it relates to most average joes it means the values of the indicators/knobs/sliders/whatever are always accurate to the setting of the parameter you’re using. So if the gain indicator/knob/slider/whatever is on 3 and then I flip to a scene/preset where the gain is on 5, but the physical indicator/knob/slider/whatever remains on 3, it is not WYSIWYG in the practical sense of the term. (From a consumer perspective)

WYSIWYG in software means something like this little text editor box on this website I'm using to type this post. It will show my post exactly like it will appear when I hit "Post reply." If I select the BB code version of it (brackets icon), it's no longer WYSIWYG but displays the tags and whatnot needed to do e.g formatting, bullet lists and whatnot. Only after posting can I see if my formatting is right.

A typical analog guitar pedal is WYSIWYG. Where its knobs point is what the values are.

The ME-90 is a lot like pedals with presets, where it's WYSIWYG with each parameter visible as long as you are just using the knobs to set the parameters. But the moment you change presets etc then the WYSIWYG aspect goes out of the window. It's a compromise, but despite obscuring the stored preset value, it still gives you really fast way to adjust something if needed.

Most modelers approach it from the other direction where they are better at showing stored preset parameters, but bad at showing and editing a lot of parameters at once. I can jump from pedal to pedal and do things to my fx way faster than I can get from my Axe-Fx 3 front panel or Axe-Edit to the right block and adjust parameters on the 3rd page and 2nd row of controls.

One of the reasons I've been asking for MIDI input improvements from Luminite Graviton's great dev is that it would allow me to build a "best of both worlds" setup - use the MIDI controller to craft control surfaces for showing stored preset values and secondary parameters, while still having most parameters right on the pedals to tweak.

I'm hoping the next generation of modelers from e.g Line6 or Fractal would put more emphasis on the editability, physical parameter control and display of parameters. I've got a big ass screen hooked up to my computer so I'd love to be able to pin different blocks to always show their parameters in Axe-Edit, or have a touchscreen capable of quickly picking the block I need and then using my finger or physical knobs to adjust stuff fast.