Boss GM-800 and GK-5

[TJontheRoad]

I don't buy all that. Keyboards are built around MIDI - or rather, MIDI is built around keyboards. Guitar-to-MIDI is an awkward afterthought, if there ever was one. Sure, it's working somewhat - but only in case you don't play a guitar as a guitar should be played. That's a fundamental difference towards playing a keyboard.

With respect, that's a narrow point of view IMHO. MIDI wasn't design to be mainly a keyboard thing. MIDI was designed to a standard digital protocol. It's used in lots of non keyboard applications that are too many to mention. In terms of synth controllers (just off the top of head), there wind synths (like my Emeo Digital Sax), touch pads, Linnstrument, Haken Audio Continuum, and much more. Each one these MIDI controllers requires the player to adjust their approach for best results.

This stuff isn't for everyone and that perfectly ok. As a guitarist myself, I find there both strengths and weaknesses to the instrument that can be broadened by MIDI. It's just another tool in the toolbox.

 

[TJontheRoad]

You all think too much, settle down

Play the damn thing, experiment and have fun!

 

[Sascha Franck]

With respect, that's a narrow point of view IMHO.

No, it's not. It's realistic.

MIDI wasn't design to be mainly a keyboard thing.

Yes, it was. The fact that it can be used for at least somewhat different things doesn't change a thing with that. It was developed both with keyboarders involved and with keyboarders in mind.

In terms of synth controllers (just off the top of head), there wind synths (like my Emeo Digital Sax), touch pads, Linnstrument, Haken Audio Continuum, and much more.

None of these feature even remotely as awkward mechanisms as Guitar-to-MIDI. In fact, they are sometimes even expanding the instrument playing options (such as that you can play chords on an EWI, something impossible on a sax) whereas GTM is severely limiting your playing/articulation options.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It was developed both with keyboarders involved and with keyboarders in mind.

And fwiw:

A Brief History of MIDI - Perfect Circuit

What is MIDI? Where did it come from? We offer an overview of MIDI's early history and its evolution, including discussions of ZIPI, MPDL, OSC, MPE, and MIDI 2.0.

www.perfectcircuit.com

 

[Sascha Franck]

2. What I am NOT going to do is adjust my playing style drastically beyond being mindful of overall normal playing technique. Muting string noises, etc. as I normally would obviously; but I am NOT going to suddenly throw my pic to the side and gingerly finger pick with a clawed hand on an accordion part because "YOUE HAVV TO APROCH IT LIKE THU REEL THINGE" bs. I get it but that's a hard no. I am tremolo picking a PCM piano with a 2mm Jim Dunlop and the box is just going to have to deal with it

All that is obviously working in many situations. You likely wouldn't record it that way, though (but rather clean up the MIDI data).
And it also doesn't contradict what I was saying. MIDI is not well suited to transport guitar playing nuances. Even so little that it's not just nuances getting lost but, depending on your playing style of course, even half of the information. In case you're lucky, it'll only be a loss of certain information, in case you're not, it'll be a truckload of warbling mess.

 

[JiveTurkey]

All that is obviously working in many situations. You likely wouldn't record it that way, though (but rather clean up the MIDI data).
And it also doesn't contradict what I was saying. MIDI is not well suited to transport guitar playing nuances. Even so little that it's not just nuances getting lost but, depending on your playing style of course, even half of the information. In case you're lucky, it'll only be a loss of certain information, in case you're not, it'll be a truckload of warbling mess.

I'm not discounting anything you are saying.

 

[TJontheRoad]

No, it's not. It's realistic.



Yes, it was. The fact that it can be used for at least somewhat different things doesn't change a thing with that. It was developed both with keyboarders involved and with keyboarders in mind.



None of these feature even remotely as awkward mechanisms as Guitar-to-MIDI. In fact, they are sometimes even expanding the instrument playing options (such as that you can play chords on an EWI, something impossible on a sax) whereas GTM is severely limiting your playing/articulation options.

And fwiw:

A Brief History of MIDI - Perfect Circuit

What is MIDI? Where did it come from? We offer an overview of MIDI's early history and its evolution, including discussions of ZIPI, MPDL, OSC, MPE, and MIDI 2.0.

www.perfectcircuit.com

Again with respect, the article you posted is contradictory to much of what you're saying. The primary focus of MIDI was for communication between synths and computers. Not exclusively keyboard synths. Many synths of the time were actually rack mounted or large specialized computers themselves (Fairlight CMI, PPG, Synclavier). Yes it started out with keys but was always ideally adapted to anything.

Guitar was and is still a challenge to confine within the limits of a 40 year standard that is MIDI. This we can agree. That doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be a part of the action from the beginning. Roland, the company along with Sequential that came up with MIDI, had guitar synths from the beginning.

Note, I don't mean to make this discussion an argument in any way. It is to me a worthwhile historical discussion as it pertains to the GM-800 and where we are today. I think the GM-800 is a big step forward for guitarist. It isn't perfect though. Nothing is.

Pease :)

 

[Sascha Franck]

The primary focus of MIDI was for communication between synths and computers.

No, you should possibly read the article again. The first noteworthy MIDI connection was made between two keyboards.
But then, it's not even about that. Because, even if it was meant to connect a computer (which, back then, didn't make much sense as there was hardly any software to work with), the "nature of the data stream" is every bit keyboard centric. The main informations transmitted at first were note on/off and velocity, followed by certain controllers.
All of this is extremely keyboard centric as these are the very informations you can gather with ease from keyboards. Gathering the same information from a guitar is a fundamentally (!) different process, not even just because it involves pitch to MIDI conversion but because a whole amount of other information is much more difficult to gather or even needs to be stripped out entirely as to not confuse the receiving side of the system.
Sorry, but saying that MIDI isn't mainly suited to deal with keyboards is ignoring both history and practical aspects.

Guitar was and is still a challenge to confine within the limits of a 40 year standard that is MIDI. This we can agree. That doesn't mean it wasn't intended to be a part of the action from the beginning. Roland, the company along with Sequential that came up with MIDI, had guitar synths from the beginning.

That is just not true. MIDI has been developed completely without any guitars in the making, Roland was using a different data format for their guitar synths internally and only hopped onto the MIDI train when it became clear that this was the new standard. Internally, they continued to use something else (probably pretty similar but suited better for guitar).
Yes, Roland was involved in developing MIDI, yet, their guitar synths weren't part of the MIDI development.

It is to me a worthwhile historical discussion

Same here. And again sorry, but you seem to be sort of missing what the MIDI roots were.
Seriously, you can even see it by the nature of MIDI and the partially huge issues coming along with Guitar-to-MIDI that these two languages simply don't translate well into each other. Can you use it, though? Of course. And it's partially excellent. But saying anything that a guitar would be even remotely as suitable to control a synth via MIDI than a keyboard, well - IMO that's almost absurd.

 

[TJontheRoad]

No, you should possibly read the article again. The first noteworthy MIDI connection was made between two keyboards.
But then, it's not even about that. Because, even if it was meant to connect a computer (which, back then, didn't make much sense as there was hardly any software to work with), the "nature of the data stream" is every bit keyboard centric. The main informations transmitted at first were note on/off and velocity, followed by certain controllers.
All of this is extremely keyboard centric as these are the very informations you can gather with ease from keyboards. Gathering the same information from a guitar is a fundamentally (!) different process, not even just because it involves pitch to MIDI conversion but because a whole amount of other information is much more difficult to gather or even needs to be stripped out entirely as to not confuse the receiving side of the system.
Sorry, but saying that MIDI isn't mainly suited to deal with keyboards is ignoring both history and practical aspects.



That is just not true. MIDI has been developed completely without any guitars in the making, Roland was using a different data format for their guitar synths internally and only hopped onto the MIDI train when it became clear that this was the new standard. Internally, they continued to use something else (probably pretty similar but suited better for guitar).
Yes, Roland was involved in developing MIDI, yet, their guitar synths weren't part of the MIDI development.



Same here. And again sorry, but you seem to be sort of missing what the MIDI roots were.
Seriously, you can even see it by the nature of MIDI and the partially huge issues coming along with Guitar-to-MIDI that these two languages simply don't translate well into each other. Can you use it, though? Of course. And it's partially excellent. But saying anything that a guitar would be even remotely as suitable to control a synth via MIDI than a keyboard, well - IMO that's almost absurd.

Agree to disagree.

Cheers TJ

 

[Sascha Franck]

Agree to disagree

And I'm seriously wondering what kinda things there are to disagree with. I mean, it's largely just historical and technical stuff, explaining why guitars aren't as good as MIDI triggering devices as keyboards. These are mainly facts.

 

[Piing]

 

[Sascha Franck]

Taking Sascha off of Ignore briefly to see what he’s bitching about this time is like trying to bite into a Gobstopper with a cavity-filled tooth.

Where exactly am I bitching about anything? I was posting some factual things. If you think that's bitching, you better quickly put me on ignore again. And that's rather your loss than mine.

 

[JiveTurkey]

What's the actual point you're arguing about though?

 

[Sascha Franck]

What's the actual point you're arguing about though?

Personally, I'm not arguing about anything. And I never did in this thread. I was just pointing out a handful of things inherent to the Guitar-to-MIDI world. No access points to even turn this into any kind of argument.

 

[BROCKSTAR]

or synth, or both... but geez!

 

[Sascha Franck]

Not really. You’ve yet to provide anything of value.

Maybe you need to learn reading. I have provided the reasons/explanations why Guitar-to-MIDI doesn't work all that well and posted some links covering the relevant parts of MIDI history.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Sounds like it’s not for you then. Move along.

It's every bit for me. I own a GTM system since my Atari days. And I never said it was not for me. All I did was to (and fwiw, quite sufficiently at that) explain why guitar playing doesn't translate to MIDI even half as nicely as a keyboard. Practical and historical evidence included.

 

[Trollbait]

Isn’t that what the SY-1000 is? Except that it doesn’t have piano sounds or whatever

The SY1000 is great for harmonically restructuring the guitar strings into synth tones (with the exception of the oscillator synth which seems to be a triggered sample wave form hence it's poor tracking results).

However

Roland could have adapted that same sort of technology (it's already out there) to model acoustic instruments like piano, sax, cello, glockenspiel, bagpipes etc but no, Roland chose once again to repackage a 1990s GR 50 guitar synth. Except they moved the AD converter to the guitar, which pretty much made obsolete 13 pin gear. Then they marketed for our cash a 13 pin adapter and more patches and samples. And for some reason guitar players lapped it up as the next best great thing.

But the underlying fact is nothing is really improved beyond what was already out there.

 

[JiveTurkey]

Were we confused why pick scrapes, dive bombs and pinch harmonics don't translate to MIDI?

 

[Sascha Franck]

It works quite well.

Within certain boundaries. Which I explained. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry it doesn’t work for you.

See above, it does. Within certain boundaries. Which I explained. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don’t seem to understand what anyone in this thread is getting at, which isn’t surprising, but it is tiresome.

I perfectly understand that. Also, some people seem to at least appreciate the things I wrote. You might feel free to talk outta your ***, though, it's a free forum.