Boss GM-800 and GK-5

Here’s a complete tutorial video on using Roland Zenology Pro to program your own synth sounds for ZenCore compatible gear such as the Boss GM-800, Fantom, etc. Here, the basics of sound design are covered as it pertains to Zenology Pro and synthesis in general as well as more advance functions. Sample sounds are created to demonstrate the workflow and the power of Zenology Pro.

 
Did Boss ever disclose the sample size? Those raw wave forms sound kind of sucky. Perhaps because I use G2M to trigger the real thing.

But do you to TJ. How do you think those waveform samples into a digital filter compares to the real thing?
 
Did Boss ever disclose the sample size? Those raw wave forms sound kind of sucky. Perhaps because I use G2M to trigger the real thing.

But do you to TJ. How do you think those waveform samples into a digital filter compares to the real thing?

Zenology samples are very small and most, if not all, have come from Roland's library dating back as far as the 90s. The digital filters won't be mistaken for the real analog ones compared side by side. That doesn't mean they don't sound good in any event.
 
Higher sample bits means more notes can sampled for longer times giving arguably better sound quality.

As guitar players we chase the best tone possible. If one must use samples there are way better options out there than what the Boss is trying to feed us, like a 1990s Emu esi32 which can be purchased for around $100 used plus the cost of high bit samples like an 8 meg piano.

If consumers had said no to this repeat (really a remake of the GR50 LA synth), perhaps Boss would have used new modeling techs instead of sample snippets.
Zenology samples are very small and most, if not all, have come from Roland's library dating back as far as the 90s. The digital filters won't be mistaken for the real analog ones compared side by side. That doesn't mean they don't sound good in any event.
 
Higher sample bits means more notes can sampled for longer times giving arguably better sound quality.

As guitar players we chase the best tone possible. If one must use samples there are way better options out there than what the Boss is trying to feed us, like a 1990s Emu esi32 which can be purchased for around $100 used plus the cost of high bit samples like an 8 meg piano.

If consumers had said no to this repeat (really a remake of the GR50 LA synth), perhaps Boss would have used new modeling techs instead of sample snippets.
There is modeling tech available from Roland/Boss (V-Piano, V-EP, V-Strings, Juno/Jupiter, etc) that could be coming to the GM-800 in future firmware. Zencore is just one engine to get things started. Judging by the firmware upgrades other Roland/Boss gear have received in the past, I think these models are likely to find their way into GM-800.

Counting bits and rates is kind of a loosing game. Some of the greatest and biggest selling recordings were made on the crappiest gear that no one wanted at the time. Those guys weren't thinking about why they didn't do everything in 96k 32 bit mode. They were thinking about making hit records any way they could. Fact is, ugly down sampled low bit sounds sell.
 
Those guys weren't thinking about why they didn't do everything in 96k 32 bit mode. They were thinking about making hit records any way they could. Fact is, ugly down sampled low bit sounds sell.
Oh I agree that lower bit rates can sound good.

I'm taking about file size, not sample rate.

Good luck getting Boss to update the GM800 firmware to modeling. That will be the next product.

It' is not necessarily the sample or waveform, but the filters and LFO's applied after that make the sound.
Different Osc have different character. Feeding my Arp 2600m Osc or analog Roland GR300 through my Moog filters, envelopes and modulation(Voyeger, Slim phatty, Matriarch, mother 32) doesn't make my them sound like a moog, although it does still sound good.

The large file size Arp samples for my emu esi 32 sampler sound just
as good as my analog Arp 2600. The samples were taken after the Arp filter and modulation. But the same mod can give sounds a sameness quality.
 
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I would not wait for Boss to update the GM-800 with modeling, and I do not think it would even be possible. We already have the SY-1000 for pure modeling. A different animal. More natural beauty. No Pitch-to-MIDI triggering things 🚫
 
I would not wait for Boss to update the GM-800 with modeling, and I do not think it would even be possible. We already have the SY-1000 for pure modeling. A different animal. More natural beauty. No Pitch-to-MIDI triggering things 🚫

SY-1000 has guitar and amp modeling not synth modeling.
Waiting for Boss to update anything is an exercise in futility. An age old story.
I'd certainly agree with you. However, I think the GM-800 may be a little different. They don't need to write new code. They just need to port it over. We'll see...
 
SY-1000 has guitar and amp modeling not synth modeling.
I always wondered how Roland created the GR300 synth in the SY1000 (VG99 and GP10). It's around a 99% accurate reproduction of the analog GR300. Some say they added harmonics to the guitar string with various filtering. Same with the dynamic synth. Isn't that modeling?

The Osc synth is thought to be a sample that's triggered hence the poor performance similar to the P2M of that unit.

Did Roland perfect the mis-triggering in the Osc synth (PCM samples of analog waveforms) in the GM800?

I would highly recommend anyone wanting learn subtractive synth techniques not do it on a computer.

Buy an inexpensive analog synth, one knob per function and trigger it with one of the faster more accurate guitar P2M converters. In Roland products that would be GI-10/20, GR50, GR1 and GR33. Or trigger with keyboard.

An inexpensive subtractive synth would be a mono synth like Behringturd Model D or a used Dreadbox Nymphes for modulation options and 6 note poly.
 
I always wondered how Roland created the GR300 synth in the SY1000 (VG99 and GP10). It's around a 99% accurate reproduction of the analog GR300. Some say they added harmonics to the guitar string with various filtering. Same with the dynamic synth. Isn't that modeling?

The Osc synth is thought to be a sample that's triggered hence the poor performance similar to the P2M of that unit.

Did Roland perfect the mis-triggering in the Osc synth (PCM samples of analog waveforms) in the GM800?
.

Modeling is reproducing each component of the gear in software. Filtering is just well, filtering. Likely multiple bandpass filters for prior to GM-800 units.

Triggers are better in GM-800.
 
I listened to a recent GM800 youtube demo by a technically skilled guitar player doing an Organ sound. The P2M tracking errors were audible.

If everyone just ignored Roland's repackaging of midi triggered PCM samples, perhaps they would give us something new (for them) like the current modeling technology of acoustic instruments.

DSP modeling of course yields better tracking results which does not require translating guitar pitch to midi.
 
DSP modeling of course yields better tracking results which does not require translating guitar pitch to midi.

Fwiw, it's not only about tracking for me. Tracking could possibly still be improved (but in fact, it's not all that bad since some years already), but the main issue would still be that guitar playing techniques simply don't translate well into MIDI commands or possible implementations on the receiving side.
I mean, what's the MIDI equivalent of a slur? Or a rake, a scratch - or whatever noises you feel like creating on a guitar? In MIDI land, pretty much none of those have an exact counterpart. And even less so on the receiving instrument side (because those were built around the MIDI possibilities). Now, sure, modern instruments and libraries have partially extended options for more expressive playing, but you'd still have to send the required playing instructions through the MIDI pipe. As a stupid example, a keyboard player might be able to send a key switch command or a controller message to switch the receiving instrument into, say, "glide" mode (which might be slides, portamento, whatever...), but what are you gonna do to get there with your MIDI-fied guitar? Yeah, you might add a bunch of controller switches and pedals - but that's still entirely different from just performing that slur on your guitar.

And fwiw, because we possibly can't really get rid of most of our typical playing habits, this results in bad tracking perception. But that's not necessarily the case, it's just that there's no ways of translation, so that tonal informations exceeding the MIDI boundaries will sound like horribly tracked garbage.
If you really take care of your playing technique, ideally playing finger style (or hybrid) for chords, also avoiding most articulation manners but plain bends and vibratos, ideally paired with generally excellent technique (no unwanted buzz, great L/R hand synchronisattion, no stupid "unsecure" vibratos and what not), current Guitar-to-MIDI systems are tracking quite well IMO (and already are since quite a while).
But do we really want to do that? Just to still fall way behind keyboardars in terms of proper playing options?
Personally, I don't. I should still slap my GK onto whatever guitar for recording purposes, but that's simply because I'm such a miserable keyboard player, not at all to enhance my guitar sound universe.
After all, one of the reasons for me to play guitar is exactly that it allows for all these kinda things MIDI is completely taking away.

This is precisely why I wish more folks would do things similar (ideally following whatever kinda "standard") as Roland/Boss with their VG/SY series.
 
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In "taking my own advice for $500, Alex"; the GM is the best current tool for making your guitar sound like other fake instruments. I wish that wasn't the case but it is. Take from that what you must.

Yeah I moved on from it, but I thought the core sounds were really good. Some of the piano and synth sounds were very convincing to me.
 
It's easy to "blame" MIDI. OTOH, raking, tapping, string scratching, and alike aren't for anything but guitar. Why would anyone bother with a synth if that's what they are going to play? You buy a guitar synth because you want to have synth sounds without learning another instrument. What a synth expects to get via MIDI is readily there via the GM-800. Sloppy playing is somehow ok on guitar. A guitar synth exposes these weaknesses in a player. There's little to no translation because there's no other instrument other than guitar that works the same way. Strings, horns, piano, etc. need clean playing in the real world and via MIDI.
 
It's easy to "blame" MIDI. OTOH, raking, tapping, string scratching, and alike aren't for anything but guitar. Why would anyone bother with a synth if that's what they are going to play? You buy a guitar synth because you want to have synth sounds without learning another instrument. What a synth expects to get via MIDI is readily there via the GM-800. Sloppy playing is somehow ok on guitar. A guitar synth exposes these weaknesses in a player. There's little to no translation because there's no other instrument other than guitar that works the same way. Strings, horns, piano, etc. need clean playing in the real world and via MIDI.

I don't buy all that. Keyboards are built around MIDI - or rather, MIDI is built around keyboards. Guitar-to-MIDI is an awkward afterthought, if there ever was one. Sure, it's working somewhat - but only in case you don't play a guitar as a guitar should be played. That's a fundamental difference towards playing a keyboard.
 
Couple of guitar synth rules I live by. Right or wrong.

1. Bend the sh!t out trumpets and do all sorts of dumb slides/non-real moves when I can. It's obviously not a trumpet; it's a flying V. So the audience can adjust their expectations accordingly :hmm:rofl

2. What I am NOT going to do is adjust my playing style drastically beyond being mindful of overall normal playing technique. Muting string noises, etc. as I normally would obviously; but I am NOT going to suddenly throw my pic to the side and gingerly finger pick with a clawed hand on an accordion part because "YOUE HAVV TO APROCH IT LIKE THU REEL THINGE" bs. I get it but that's a hard no. I am tremolo picking a PCM piano with a 2mm Jim Dunlop and the box is just going to have to deal with it:clint
 
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