Bad sound guys: The bane of digital guitarists

[spawnofthesith]

I may catch some heat for this, but I think the prevalence of modellers in live music as a whole and even more so these alleged "silent stages" are being VASTLY overstated. I frankly don't really believe a "silent stage trend" actually exists outside of forum antecdotes (aside from specific scenarios, churches? sure I buy that. or like the specific type of scenarios like the thread OP)


Outside of the "modern metal" type of scene where they have a pretty big foothold, modellers are a pretty extreme minority in most genres and scale of band (local to international)

 

[sashimi]

I may catch some heat for this, but I think the prevalence of modellers in live music as a whole and even more so these alleged "silent stages" are being VASTLY overstated. I frankly don't really believe a "silent stage trend" actually exists outside of forum antecdotes (aside from specific scenarios, churches? sure I buy that. or like the specific type of scenarios like the thread OP)


Outside of the "modern metal" type of scene where they have a pretty big foothold, modellers are a pretty extreme minority in most genres and scale of band (local to international)

Its definitely still amps at most smaller shows I see. It’s definitely genre dependent. Most punk, indie bands wouldn’t be caught dead without amps on stage. Blues? Classic rock? Usually amps. Cover band playing old radio hits for cougars to dance and drink to? Then you’ll see some modelers but still a lot of amps too. I don’t go to metal shows or church so can’t speak to those genres.

 

[metropolis_4]

Once upon a time you wanted to get closer to the stage. Now the closer you get
to the stage further you get from where the sound tech sits the shittier it sounds and the worse the mix gets.

True, but I might say this instead ^^

I always try to sit as close as possible to where the person mixing FOH is sitting

I think people tend to have a rosy image in their head of what it was like pre-IEM/Modelers that might omit some things they either didn't notice or just forgot about. I'll admit that it's more complex, but IME it's way better and more consistent for myself and the audience now that I've got a good handle on how to do it. I run wireless and things definitely sound better throughout the venue than before when I walk around. It's easy to get caught up in your own little bubble thinking that's how things sound everywhere.

As far as drum / bass heavy mixes go, that's just on the sound engineer. The tech isn't dictating that at all. Center fills are a known quantity and you don't need to max out the SPL on your subs.

-Aaron

I agree there are pros and cons. I’ve seen both. I’ve been to shows that sounded terrible because an amp on stage was balancing different in some parts of the house than in others, but I’ve also seen shows where the sound is terrible because of all sound only coming from the FOH system.

As an audience member what always seems to sound best to me is when there is a blend of sound from the stage and through the FOH system.

 

[aflynt]

True, but I might say this instead ^^

I always try to sit as close as possible to where the person mixing FOH is sitting



I agree there are pros and cons. I’ve seen both. I’ve been to shows that sounded terrible because an amp on stage was balancing different in some parts of the house than in others, but I’ve also seen shows where the sound is terrible because of all sound only coming from the FOH system.

As an audience member what always seems to sound best to me is when there is a blend of sound from the stage and through the FOH system.

I think most of this is still down to the competence of the sound tech and whether or not they have been given adequate tools to do their job. I guess you could argue that those factors are more important now, but I do think that things have trended in a way that has the potential to give them a better starting point. Of course as a guitarist you now have to know how to provide direct sounds to the FOH that will sound good in context in the mains and are dynamically coherent. This can be a new skill for many that may not be easy to adapt to. And conversely it still doesn't prevent the FOH engineer from completely destroying things.

-Aaron

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Yup. Truth. I mostly hate live sound these days at nearly every level.

This is interesting, as I'd say the last 10 years has consistently been the best sound I've ever heard at concerts. What you described was just about ALL of them in the past. I can remember seeing two hour shows where you could only hear one or two things and a terrible wash of noise. But the last 10 years or so have been great across multiple major acts (Dream Theater, Rush, Yes, Kansas, Megadeth and others)

 

[metropolis_4]

I think most of this is still down to the competence of the sound tech and whether or not they have been given adequate tools to do their job. I guess you could argue that those factors are more important now, but I do think that things have trended in a way that has the potential to give them a better starting point. Of course as a guitarist you now have to know how to provide direct sounds to the FOH that will sound good in context in the mains and are dynamically coherent. This can be a new skill for many that may not be easy to adapt to. And conversely it still doesn't prevent the FOH engineer from completely destroying things.

-Aaron

I think the bigger new skill guitarists have had to learn is how to provide stage monitoring of themselves.

Look at all the discussion in this thread about all the different gear/rigs for different types of venues, different approaches, different configurations all to find a way of monitoring.

I think a lot of that is because there is so much inconsistency in monitoring needs/expectations from venue to venue. One gig might provide a full IEM solution with personal mix control and wireless, while the next gig might be you’re on your own to figure out monitoring.

 

[dk_ace]

I think the bigger new skill guitarists have had to learn is how to provide stage monitoring of themselves.

Look at all the discussion in this thread about all the different gear/rigs for different types of venues, different approaches, different configurations all to find a way of monitoring.

I think a lot of that is because there is so much inconsistency in monitoring needs/expectations from venue to venue. One gig might provide a full IEM solution with personal mix control and wireless, while the next gig might be you’re on your own to figure out monitoring.

Every time I run into something screwy at a gig with monitoring, I have this exact thought that I need to bring my own answer to IEM and wedge monitoring when I don’t know what’s gonna be there. That’s just a lot of expense that I rarely need, but man the days I do I wish I had some more kit to deal with it.

There are things I haven’t come up with a good solution to though even if I wanted to spend the money.

D

 

[metropolis_4]

Every time I run into something screwy at a gig with monitoring, I have this exact thought that I need to bring my own answer to IEM and wedge monitoring when I don’t know what’s gonna be there. That’s just a lot of expense that I rarely need, but man the days I do I wish I had some more kit to deal with it.

There are things I haven’t come up with a good solution to though even if I wanted to spend the money.

D

100%

I’m in the exact same boat

 

[TubeStack]

True, but it depends on the level of the venue. The people who do actively seek to become a sound tech tend to be better at it and tend to get better jobs.

The best sound tech I know is a guy who isn’t a musician at all but has had a passion for mixing sound since he was a kid. He works in the big venues in the casinos in Vegas

Was going to post exactly this ^^^.

I try and always buddy up to the sound guy. Never hurts to offer them a drink, weed, mushrooms, etc...

Exactly. I make it a goal/game to win over the gruffest, grumpiest, prickliest of pricks. Works in your favour and makes everything more pleasant for everybody. They just want to be loved, too.

 

[shanesiegle]

Don’t disagree at all but a bad sound guy would do worse micing an amp.

 

[pipelineaudio]

If a sound guy is using the word "complicated" -at all- when talking about micing up a guitar amp they are shit and have absolutely no business running sound. Full stop.

Without understanding what microphones do or the complexity they add *in a SYSTEM* you have no business judging the quality of a soundman.

There's a reason I said "The idea that a live mic would be "less complicated"....Said no soundman ever"

Live mics ad serious complexity to the SYSTEM. Yes, people have been using them forever. We've been using gravity for forever as well, but that doesn't mean gravity is simple, or that anyone has ever explained it.

Think about just this small set of parameters. A simple 57 in front of an amp. Unless you get the amp volume up loud enough to reject other sources, that amp mic is now a phase monster fighting phase coherency of the other instruments thru FOH

IF you do get that amp's volume loud enough for that rejection, now every other mic on that stage is now another guitar amp mic. Especially the vocal mics

There's nothing simple about it except to say, it simply causes issues. We may spend our lives learning to deal with these issues, but they are still issues.

 

[aflynt]

I think the bigger new skill guitarists have had to learn is how to provide stage monitoring of themselves.

Look at all the discussion in this thread about all the different gear/rigs for different types of venues, different approaches, different configurations all to find a way of monitoring.

I think a lot of that is because there is so much inconsistency in monitoring needs/expectations from venue to venue. One gig might provide a full IEM solution with personal mix control and wireless, while the next gig might be you’re on your own to figure out monitoring.

I'll agree that monitoring is more complex than it used to be, but I think that with the right setup it can be much better overall. My personal approach is to have a 'lowest common denominator' monitoring rig that's relatively simple and quick to set up that will work in any situation. For me that's a small, self-contained IEM rig that can be set up quickly, doesn't take up much space and allows me to hear myself consistently and mix in enough of the rest of the band to get by. If I can get a full mix of everything that I can control, I'll take it, but with this setup what I hear for my instrument / vocal is 100% consistent from show to show and I have it dialed in so that it's enjoyable to play. I just point my condenser mic at whatever else I need to hear to get me through.

Personally, I think that switching between various different stage monitors or worse yet switching between stage monitors and IEMS is the wrong approach. Imposing that kind of inconsistency on myself would be self defeating. Some people might thrive on that kind of chaos, not judging, but that's definitely not me.

-Aaron

 

[laxu]

Don’t disagree at all but a bad sound guy would do worse micing an amp.

You could have some tape on your cab for "put mic here". Whether they follow that is another question...

 

[ian_dissonance]

For me all the “modern complexities” of an "FRFR"+Modeler+IEM rig works out faster and more consistently for ME no matter what the situation with the venue is. Killer venue with great front/side fills? Sick, we’re loading in drums and pedalboards and instruments and our rack and we’re communicating with FOH that we need some guitar and bass coming off the stage and since it’s a killer PA the sound guy gets it. Shitty floor venue with two 12s on sticks and a four channel mixer? Sick, we’re loading in the same gear plus two cabs. All the I/O is one spot and we can just commandeer the PA as reinforcement. And no matter what I can hear everything perfectly just like I have at rehearsal whether the room sucks or not so we’ll at the very least play well, if not sound good.

 

[metropolis_4]

For me all the “modern complexities” of an ""FRFR""+Modeler+IEM rig works out faster and more consistently for ME no matter what the situation with the venue is. Killer venue with great front/side fills? Sick, we’re loading in drums and pedalboards and instruments and our rack and we’re communicating with FOH that we need some guitar and bass coming off the stage and since it’s a killer PA the sound guy gets it. Shitty floor venue with two 12s on sticks and a four channel mixer? Sick, we’re loading in the same gear plus two cabs. All the I/O is one spot and we can just commandeer the PA as reinforcement. And no matter what I can hear everything perfectly just like I have at rehearsal whether the room sucks or not so we’ll at the very least play well, if not sound good.

It was no different in the old amp days, only simpler:

Big outdoor festival stage? Cool, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Large indoor venue with a great system? Cool, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Small dive venue with a terrible system? Bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Corner of a bowling alley with a Fender Passport PA? No problem, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

If I’m bringing anything more than an amp and a couple pedals to a gig then it is objectively more complex for me than the “good old times”

I sometimes feel as if you weren't even reading what I wrote.
After all it's you flip-flopping expensive modeling gear as if there's no tomorrow and still opening threads about how bad your live sound experience would be. The reasons for that are pretty obvious - and it's not because digital gear was used.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It was no different in the old amp days, only simpler:

Big outdoor festival stage? Cool, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Large indoor venue with a great system? Cool, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Small dive venue with a terrible system? Bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Corner of a bowling alley with a Fender Passport PA? No problem, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Any of these? Bring my pedalboard, an active monitor and present the FOH dude an XLR out. *What exactly* is less simple with that than your AC30 setup? The fact that my setup weighs less? Or the fact that sometimes I don't even need to grab the monitor because there's one already? And fwiw, you were using nothing else but your AC30? No pedalboards?

 

[Sascha Franck]

You could have some tape on your cab for "put mic here". Whether they follow that is another question...

Back in my mic'ed amp days, I had a mic clamp, my own mic and some markers. Quite a great thing not just because of the constant sound but as I could even move the cab around a bit without having to deal with a mic stand.

 

[ian_dissonance]

It was no different in the old amp days, only simpler:

Big outdoor festival stage? Cool, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Large indoor venue with a great system? Cool, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Small dive venue with a terrible system? Bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

Corner of a bowling alley with a Fender Passport PA? No problem, bring my AC30 and stick a 57 in front of it.

And hope your cab didn’t disappear in the room if it sucks, or that FOH had someone competent on monitors, or you can find just the right 5’ circle to play in so you can hear everything and “feel” the amp properly. It’s not like I never played a barebones rig and just dealt with it. Guitar cabs are literally garbage speaker systems that can be massively effected by shit like room shape, stage construction, surface proximity, distance, whether or not the guy who dropped the mic knew what he was doing or how to eq. Everything has its own set of problems, I prefer what I hear to not be one of them.

 

[metropolis_4]

I sometimes feel as if you weren't even reading what I wrote.
After all it's you flip-flopping expensive modeling gear as if there's no tomorrow and still opening threads about how bad your live sound experience would be. The reasons for that are pretty obvious - and it's not because digital gear was used.

Flip-flopping modeling gear is just for fun. The only sound issues I keep having are due to monitoring.

Last run of shows was fantastic. Great IEM system with my own stereo mix, everything sounded amazing. This one, not so much.

Bring my pedalboard, an active monitor and present the FOH dude an XLR out. *What exactly* is less simple with that than your AC30 setup?

Nothing. I didn’t say it was less simple than that.

And hope your cab didn’t disappear in the room if it sucks, or that FOH had someone competent on monitors, or you can find just the right 5’ circle to play in so you can hear everything and “feel” the amp properly. It’s not like I never played a barebones rig and just dealt with it. Guitar cabs are literally garbage speaker systems that can be massively effected by shit like room shape, stage construction, surface proximity, distance, whether or not the guy who dropped the mic knew what he was doing or how to eq. Everything has its own set of problems, I prefer what I hear to not be one of them.

It didn’t take long to learn how to position an amp based on the stage so it would sound good for stage monitoring. And after that my amp always sounded consistent to me gig to gig because I’m hearing the same amp through the same speakers every time.

I don’t know how good or bad guitar cabs are, but I know I love the sound of them and how they make my sound balance in a mix