Bad sound guys: The bane of digital guitarists

[Sascha Franck]

It balances differently though. Somehow the sound of an amp seems to blend more naturally with other instruments in the room.

I vastly prefer the way a decent "FRFR" wedge behaves.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Tbh…I don’t like the no amp on stage thing one bit. Defenitly not when I play myself…

Me neither. Whenever I can, I go for my monitor rather than playing with IEM. The only difference being that what was my amp back then is now my monitor. And fwiw, whenever I can, I treat it exactly like an amp. As in using it just for my guitars and nothing else. And as in asking for another dedicated monitor for all the rest.

 

[metropolis_4]

First off: There's no more "building" than before. As said, pedalboard and monitor.

Then:



As said, anything beyond pedalboard and monitor is to add comfort. Comfort that wouldn't even have a chance to exist in the "good old times".
And I usually don't need it, either. In case the venue is decent, I'm asking for a dedicated (separated from the house monitoring) active wedge beforehand. Quite often, that happens to work out just fine. In those cases I'm down to just the pedalboard.

So, no, there's nothing more "complexed" than some years back - unless I want to make it somewhat more complexed for some extra luxury.
And having said that, it's actually not complexed at all. That stuff is dead simple to deal with once you got into it.

If I’m bringing anything more than an amp and a couple pedals to a gig then it is objectively more complex for me than the “good old times”

With digital sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t, but there a lot more potential scenarios I now need to account for than I ever had before.

I vastly prefer the way a decent ""FRFR"" wedge behaves.

That’s great for you, I can’t stand them

 

[pipelineaudio]

Stop playing shitty gigs/venues if your sound guy thinks micing an amp is "complicated"

Oh the irony!

Someone had a very very bad math teacher

 

[pipelineaudio]

If I’m bringing anything more than an amp and a couple pedals to a gig then it is objectively more complex for me than the “good old times”

Ding ding ding. He's actually talking about bringing LESS than an amp and a couple of pedals. He's talking about bringing an amp and ONE pedal (potentially)

 

[spawnofthesith]

Oh the irony!

Someone had a very very bad math teacher

Huh?


If a sound guy is using the word "complicated" -at all- when talking about micing up a guitar amp they are shit and have absolutely no business running sound. Full stop.

 

[la szum]

Right, it used to be FOH was sound reinforcement but that isn’t the case anymore.

I completely agree, as an audience member I hate when some instruments are heard acoustically from the stage and others are only through the PA, it doesn’t balance right. I get the problems that can happen and I’ve heard some terrible sound from amps on stage, but I still think shows at most venues sound best when you hear some of the sound coming from the stage

Yup. Truth. I mostly hate live sound these days at nearly every level.

It's increasingly rare where you can be trusted to produce a decent
stage sound as a band/ensemble and then allow that to be amplified
and piped through the FOH/Monitors.

Been to club shows for national acts where all you hear are drums in your fucking
face and no guitars, and only getting bass, guitars, vocals from whatever bleeds
out from the back of your head from the PA (or wedges if the band is allowed to use
them).

Once upon a time you wanted to get closer to the stage. Now the closer you get
to the stage the shittier it sounds and the worse the mix gets.

 

[aflynt]

I think people tend to have a rosy image in their head of what it was like pre-IEM/Modelers that might omit some things they either didn't notice or just forgot about. I'll admit that it's more complex, but IME it's way better and more consistent for myself and the audience now that I've got a good handle on how to do it. I run wireless and things definitely sound better throughout the venue than before when I walk around. It's easy to get caught up in your own little bubble thinking that's how things sound everywhere.

As far as drum / bass heavy mixes go, that's just on the sound engineer. The tech isn't dictating that at all. Center fills are a known quantity and you don't need to max out the SPL on your subs.

-Aaron

 

[spawnofthesith]

I may catch some heat for this, but I think the prevalence of modellers in live music as a whole and even more so these alleged "silent stages" are being VASTLY overstated. I frankly don't really believe a "silent stage trend" actually exists outside of forum antecdotes (aside from specific scenarios, churches? sure I buy that. or like the specific type of scenarios like the thread OP)


Outside of the "modern metal" type of scene where they have a pretty big foothold, modellers are a pretty extreme minority in most genres and scale of band (local to international)

 

[sashimi]

I may catch some heat for this, but I think the prevalence of modellers in live music as a whole and even more so these alleged "silent stages" are being VASTLY overstated. I frankly don't really believe a "silent stage trend" actually exists outside of forum antecdotes (aside from specific scenarios, churches? sure I buy that. or like the specific type of scenarios like the thread OP)


Outside of the "modern metal" type of scene where they have a pretty big foothold, modellers are a pretty extreme minority in most genres and scale of band (local to international)

Its definitely still amps at most smaller shows I see. It’s definitely genre dependent. Most punk, indie bands wouldn’t be caught dead without amps on stage. Blues? Classic rock? Usually amps. Cover band playing old radio hits for cougars to dance and drink to? Then you’ll see some modelers but still a lot of amps too. I don’t go to metal shows or church so can’t speak to those genres.

 

[metropolis_4]

Once upon a time you wanted to get closer to the stage. Now the closer you get
to the stage further you get from where the sound tech sits the shittier it sounds and the worse the mix gets.

True, but I might say this instead ^^

I always try to sit as close as possible to where the person mixing FOH is sitting

I think people tend to have a rosy image in their head of what it was like pre-IEM/Modelers that might omit some things they either didn't notice or just forgot about. I'll admit that it's more complex, but IME it's way better and more consistent for myself and the audience now that I've got a good handle on how to do it. I run wireless and things definitely sound better throughout the venue than before when I walk around. It's easy to get caught up in your own little bubble thinking that's how things sound everywhere.

As far as drum / bass heavy mixes go, that's just on the sound engineer. The tech isn't dictating that at all. Center fills are a known quantity and you don't need to max out the SPL on your subs.

-Aaron

I agree there are pros and cons. I’ve seen both. I’ve been to shows that sounded terrible because an amp on stage was balancing different in some parts of the house than in others, but I’ve also seen shows where the sound is terrible because of all sound only coming from the FOH system.

As an audience member what always seems to sound best to me is when there is a blend of sound from the stage and through the FOH system.

 

[aflynt]

True, but I might say this instead ^^

I always try to sit as close as possible to where the person mixing FOH is sitting



I agree there are pros and cons. I’ve seen both. I’ve been to shows that sounded terrible because an amp on stage was balancing different in some parts of the house than in others, but I’ve also seen shows where the sound is terrible because of all sound only coming from the FOH system.

As an audience member what always seems to sound best to me is when there is a blend of sound from the stage and through the FOH system.

I think most of this is still down to the competence of the sound tech and whether or not they have been given adequate tools to do their job. I guess you could argue that those factors are more important now, but I do think that things have trended in a way that has the potential to give them a better starting point. Of course as a guitarist you now have to know how to provide direct sounds to the FOH that will sound good in context in the mains and are dynamically coherent. This can be a new skill for many that may not be easy to adapt to. And conversely it still doesn't prevent the FOH engineer from completely destroying things.

-Aaron

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

Yup. Truth. I mostly hate live sound these days at nearly every level.

This is interesting, as I'd say the last 10 years has consistently been the best sound I've ever heard at concerts. What you described was just about ALL of them in the past. I can remember seeing two hour shows where you could only hear one or two things and a terrible wash of noise. But the last 10 years or so have been great across multiple major acts (Dream Theater, Rush, Yes, Kansas, Megadeth and others)

 

[metropolis_4]

I think most of this is still down to the competence of the sound tech and whether or not they have been given adequate tools to do their job. I guess you could argue that those factors are more important now, but I do think that things have trended in a way that has the potential to give them a better starting point. Of course as a guitarist you now have to know how to provide direct sounds to the FOH that will sound good in context in the mains and are dynamically coherent. This can be a new skill for many that may not be easy to adapt to. And conversely it still doesn't prevent the FOH engineer from completely destroying things.

-Aaron

I think the bigger new skill guitarists have had to learn is how to provide stage monitoring of themselves.

Look at all the discussion in this thread about all the different gear/rigs for different types of venues, different approaches, different configurations all to find a way of monitoring.

I think a lot of that is because there is so much inconsistency in monitoring needs/expectations from venue to venue. One gig might provide a full IEM solution with personal mix control and wireless, while the next gig might be you’re on your own to figure out monitoring.

 

[dk_ace]

I think the bigger new skill guitarists have had to learn is how to provide stage monitoring of themselves.

Look at all the discussion in this thread about all the different gear/rigs for different types of venues, different approaches, different configurations all to find a way of monitoring.

I think a lot of that is because there is so much inconsistency in monitoring needs/expectations from venue to venue. One gig might provide a full IEM solution with personal mix control and wireless, while the next gig might be you’re on your own to figure out monitoring.

Every time I run into something screwy at a gig with monitoring, I have this exact thought that I need to bring my own answer to IEM and wedge monitoring when I don’t know what’s gonna be there. That’s just a lot of expense that I rarely need, but man the days I do I wish I had some more kit to deal with it.

There are things I haven’t come up with a good solution to though even if I wanted to spend the money.

D

 

[metropolis_4]

Every time I run into something screwy at a gig with monitoring, I have this exact thought that I need to bring my own answer to IEM and wedge monitoring when I don’t know what’s gonna be there. That’s just a lot of expense that I rarely need, but man the days I do I wish I had some more kit to deal with it.

There are things I haven’t come up with a good solution to though even if I wanted to spend the money.

D

100%

I’m in the exact same boat

 

[TubeStack]

True, but it depends on the level of the venue. The people who do actively seek to become a sound tech tend to be better at it and tend to get better jobs.

The best sound tech I know is a guy who isn’t a musician at all but has had a passion for mixing sound since he was a kid. He works in the big venues in the casinos in Vegas

Was going to post exactly this ^^^.

I try and always buddy up to the sound guy. Never hurts to offer them a drink, weed, mushrooms, etc...

Exactly. I make it a goal/game to win over the gruffest, grumpiest, prickliest of pricks. Works in your favour and makes everything more pleasant for everybody. They just want to be loved, too.

 

[shanesiegle]

Don’t disagree at all but a bad sound guy would do worse micing an amp.

 

[pipelineaudio]

If a sound guy is using the word "complicated" -at all- when talking about micing up a guitar amp they are shit and have absolutely no business running sound. Full stop.

Without understanding what microphones do or the complexity they add *in a SYSTEM* you have no business judging the quality of a soundman.

There's a reason I said "The idea that a live mic would be "less complicated"....Said no soundman ever"

Live mics ad serious complexity to the SYSTEM. Yes, people have been using them forever. We've been using gravity for forever as well, but that doesn't mean gravity is simple, or that anyone has ever explained it.

Think about just this small set of parameters. A simple 57 in front of an amp. Unless you get the amp volume up loud enough to reject other sources, that amp mic is now a phase monster fighting phase coherency of the other instruments thru FOH

IF you do get that amp's volume loud enough for that rejection, now every other mic on that stage is now another guitar amp mic. Especially the vocal mics

There's nothing simple about it except to say, it simply causes issues. We may spend our lives learning to deal with these issues, but they are still issues.

 

[aflynt]

I think the bigger new skill guitarists have had to learn is how to provide stage monitoring of themselves.

Look at all the discussion in this thread about all the different gear/rigs for different types of venues, different approaches, different configurations all to find a way of monitoring.

I think a lot of that is because there is so much inconsistency in monitoring needs/expectations from venue to venue. One gig might provide a full IEM solution with personal mix control and wireless, while the next gig might be you’re on your own to figure out monitoring.

I'll agree that monitoring is more complex than it used to be, but I think that with the right setup it can be much better overall. My personal approach is to have a 'lowest common denominator' monitoring rig that's relatively simple and quick to set up that will work in any situation. For me that's a small, self-contained IEM rig that can be set up quickly, doesn't take up much space and allows me to hear myself consistently and mix in enough of the rest of the band to get by. If I can get a full mix of everything that I can control, I'll take it, but with this setup what I hear for my instrument / vocal is 100% consistent from show to show and I have it dialed in so that it's enjoyable to play. I just point my condenser mic at whatever else I need to hear to get me through.

Personally, I think that switching between various different stage monitors or worse yet switching between stage monitors and IEMS is the wrong approach. Imposing that kind of inconsistency on myself would be self defeating. Some people might thrive on that kind of chaos, not judging, but that's definitely not me.

-Aaron