Bad sound guys: The bane of digital guitarists

[Sascha Franck]

In my mind it has become easier over the last 2 decades..,.

Quite defenitely. For my purposes, modeling and the various ways to utilize it, have been a godsend.
Setup time is as short as it gets, I can use pretty much anything ("FRFR", straight into an amp's input, straight into an amp's return, straight into whatever IEM system) with very little differences in the final sound.
Transportation is fantastic, too, everything fits into a small bike trailer, the smaller setup even is train compatible. And my next medium setup will be able to get with me on a bike without any trailer.
Also, I have never gotten so much compliments about my sound before making the switch. People love it that my stage volume doesn't affect FOH volume. People love it that there's no speaker beam of death. I have never been asked to actually turn my stuff *up* that often, either.

 

[metropolis_4]

So, as a sound man, I see this thread title, and then in two sentences you show that he has NO CHANCE of giving you what you want, and that the best pro in the world couldn't either, with that system.

As both a guitar player and a sound man, I love it when people blame the sound man for everything, but it's especially rewarding when they then post enough info that anyone who knows anything knows it's not the sound mans fault. So despite the busting on the sound man thread title, uh.... thanks!

It’s not that simple. I was trying to be more succinct in the post and not include every single detail about everything this one particular sound tech did.

My point was more in general that you are entirely at the mercy of both the system and the person operating it.

I could give you more sets out the mistakes and frustrating things this particular person has been doing but it’s not relevant to the point

No. Because my basic setup is just that, too. Pedalboard plus active monitor, done.
All the other options are addons only making my life much more comfortable and wouldn't be available with a plain amp at all.



They're not, see above. You're making them more complicated.

But you are the one who is building all these rigs and bringing and setting up all that equipment to account for monitoring. That is now all part of your gear and setup for a show

 

[metropolis_4]

You think so? In my mind..a modeler & 2/3 combos allow my any scenario…from silent to blasting someone in the front. Some might add a ""FRFR"" to that…
In my mind it has become easier over the last 2 decades..,.

Maybe a difference is that where you used to didn’t think about your foh signal (some dude miced it)…now that shifted to our responsibility.

I do think it’s gotten more complicated for us as guitarists. I have to deal with so much more gear considerations than I ever had to in the past.

There are pros and cons to that, but it is definitely more complicated from our side.

I used to show up to any gig with nothing but my amp and a few pedals. Now I have to consider all these other things like monitoring that I as a guitarist never had to deal with before.

 

[spawnofthesith]

- With a FR monitor, I can adjust stage sound EQ and volume independently from the FOH feed.
- No (possibly moving) mic stand involved.
- No bleed from other sources.
- No more looking for the perfect mic spot.
- No speaker beam.
- Decent ""FRFR"" monitors can weigh as little as 10kg. Which combo amp could compete?
- I can use an ""FRFR"" monitor for acoustic guitars, too.
- I can use an ""FRFR"" monitor for other signals, too, should there be no dedicated monitor for me.

All these are making both setup times and general stage life easier. A lot easier.

" a lot easier" is a pretty big exaggeration imo. I've never experienced a gig where setting up/micing a speaker/cab takes more than 1 minute at most. And the "problems" listed aren't really much of problems at all. This stuff is dead simple, and I would avoid playing at venues with sound guys who make it out to be anything other than dead simple

But I'm a big proponent of using what you like and whats best for your specific situation, so I'm glad that your setup works for you and makes your life easier

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Quite defenitely. For my purposes, modeling and the various ways to utilize it, have been a godsend.
Setup time is as short as it gets, I can use pretty much anything (""FRFR"", straight into an amp's input, straight into an amp's return, straight into whatever IEM system) with very little differences in the final sound.
Transportation is fantastic, too, everything fits into a small bike trailer, the smaller setup even is train compatible. And my next medium setup will be able to get with me on a bike without any trailer.
Also, I have never gotten so much compliments about my sound before making the switch. People love it that my stage volume doesn't affect FOH volume. People love it that there's no speaker beam of death. I have never been asked to actually turn my stuff *up* that often, either.

I put a guitar and a QC in a double gigbag,,,and the 50w stJames,,,and I bycicle to the club

Tbh…I don’t like the no amp on stage thing one bit. Defenitly not when I play myself…but also not as a listener.
As a listener it works in optimal conditions with PAs covering the whole room (middle speakers, delaystacks etc…arenas for sure…but festivals, clubs…it sounds very anemic tbh…plus..in many cases when you are in front…you hear drums…cause you are between the speakers.
Special mention for coverbands that use 2 small PA speakers they put on poles themselves…preferable an electric drumkit also…terrible…
I understand this happens under pressure of volume restrictions…but in my mind it’s a kiss of slow death for live music.
I’d rather do it oldfashioned,,,and just play softer.

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

I do think it’s gotten more complicated for us as guitarists. I have to deal with so much more gear considerations than I ever had to in the past.

There are pros and cons to that, but it is definitely more complicated from our side.

I used to show up to any gig with nothing but my amp and a few pedals. Now I have to consider all these other things like monitoring that I as a guitarist never had to deal with before.

You could show up with an amp and a modeler still right?…unless it’s silent…but then it’s in ears right.
..or am I missing something?

 

[spawnofthesith]

I put a guitar and a QC in a double gigbag,,,and the 50w stJames,,,and I bycicle to the club

Tbh…I don’t like the no amp on stage thing one bit. Defenitly not when I play myself…but also not as a listener.
As a listener it works in optimal conditions with PAs covering the whole room (middle speakers, delaystacks etc…arenas for sure…but festivals, clubs…it sounds very anemic tbh…plus..in many cases when you are in front…you hear drums…cause you are between the speakers.
Special mention for coverbands that use 2 small PA speakers they put on poles themselves…preferable an electric drumkit also…terrible…
I understand this happens under pressure of volume restrictions…but in my mind it’s a kiss of slow death for live music.
I’d rather do it oldfashioned,,,and just play softer.

Big venues as long as you aren't at the front no guitar stage volume is fine I guess, but a more intimate vene or a bar or even bigger clubs if you're at the front.... no stage volume is whack AF from an audience perspective

 

[metropolis_4]

You could show up with an amp and a modeler still right?…unless it’s silent…but then it’s in ears right.
..or am I missing something?

Sometimes, but I’m also coming across more situations where I’m expected to go direct only with no amp or personal monitor.

That was never an expectation or requirement before digital and going direct became the norm.

The fact that the technology exists has changed the game for us guitarists. My trumpet playing friends are never expected to go direct with zero stage volume because it’s not an option for them.

 

[metropolis_4]

What really gets me is when I’m asked to go direct and have no stage volume because it’s a “silent stage” and I’m sitting next to a horn section blowing 110db from the stage

 

[AFKAEjay(retired)]

Sometimes, but I’m also coming across more situations where I’m expected to go direct only with no amp or personal monitor.

That was never an expectation or requirement before digital and going direct became the norm.

The fact that the technology exists has changed the game for us guitarists. My trumpet playing friends are never expected to go direct with zero stage volume because it’s not an option for them.

What really gets me is when I’m asked to go direct and have no stage volume because it’s a “silent stage” and I’m sitting next to a horn section blowing 110db from the stage

Ahh…well…that’s the design flaw in soundguys
And it’s sooooooo silly imo…when you have a drumkit ..,and horns…the rest being silent makes it impossible to get a good sound everywhere in the room….not gonna happen.
If the band creates a good overall sound on stage…you just make it louder…and maybe a wee bit of compensation here and there.

But if you need to go direct with no monitor…that means your on IEM right? Thats okish isn’t it?
If it’s “no amp allowed” and they throw a monitor in front of you…I’d get back in the car

 

[jay mitchell]

I used to show up to any gig with nothing but my amp and a few pedals. Now I have to consider all these other things like monitoring

An amp is "monitoring." A modeler + small monitor is no more to carry and set up than a small combo amp and pedals. I've played gigs with house sound guys (admittedly pros) and PAs, and nobody has ever objected to me using my wedge for myself only, with a house-supplied wedge that has no guitar in it.

 

[metropolis_4]

Ahh…well…that’s the design flaw in soundguys
And it’s sooooooo silly imo…when you have a drumkit ..,and horns…the rest being silent makes it impossible to get a good sound everywhere in the room….not gonna happen.
If the band creates a good overall sound on stage…you just make it louder…and maybe a wee bit of compensation here and there.

But if you need to go direct with no monitor…that means your on IEM right? Thats okish isn’t it?
If it’s “no amp allowed” and they throw a monitor in front of you…I’d get back in the car

Right, it used to be FOH was sound reinforcement but that isn’t the case anymore.

I completely agree, as an audience member I hate when some instruments are heard acoustically from the stage and others are only through the PA, it doesn’t balance right. I get the problems that can happen and I’ve heard some terrible sound from amps on stage, but I still think shows at most venues sound best when you hear some of the sound coming from the stage

 

[OrganicZed]

What really gets me is when I’m asked to go direct and have no stage volume because it’s a “silent stage” and I’m sitting next to a horn section blowing 110db from the stage

That's insane.

I think the real problem is that people know it is possible for guitarists to go direct with no stage volume and so they now expect it because it makes things easier for FOH to mix.

 

[spawnofthesith]

But if you need to go direct with no monitor…that means your on IEM right? Thats okish isn’t it?
If it’s “no amp allowed” and they throw a monitor in front of you…I’d get back in the car

I've dabbled a little bit at our rehearsal space going direct with reactive load/IRs since we use IEMs, and its fine, but its just not the same experience to not have that guitar and bass vibrations happening in the room... switching back to micing my cab I was like "oh yeah fuck that noise I'm not going direct again" lol


Sorry to bring Phish into this thread, but on their recent tour their bass player decided to pull cabs from the stage (guitar did too the first night of the tour then immediately brought cabs back) but to replace that body feel of no bass cabs they have some interesting "rumble pads" that they stand on that react to the bass. Seems like over complicating things to me, just bring the cabs back

 

[metropolis_4]

I've dabbled a little bit at our rehearsal space going direct with reactive load/IRs since we use IEMs, and its fine, but its just not the same experience to not have that guitar and bass vibrations happening in the room... switching back to micing my cab I was like "oh yeah fuck that noise I'm not going direct again" lol


Sorry to bring Phish into this thread, but on their recent tour their bass player decided to pull cabs from the stage (guitar did too the first night of the tour then immediately brought cabs back) but to replace that body feel of no bass cabs they have some interesting "rumble pads" that they stand on that react to the bass. Seems like over complicating things to me, just bring the cabs back

What I keep wondering about is that we’ve solved one problem of giving sound techs more control over FOH by eliminating sound from the stage, but the solution to that creates so many new problems that require such complex solutions… is it worth it?

I guess that probably depends on the situation and the venue?

 

[metropolis_4]

An amp is "monitoring." A modeler + small monitor is no more to carry and set up than a small combo amp and pedals. I've played gigs with house sound guys (admittedly pros) and PAs, and nobody has ever objected to me using my wedge for myself only, with a house-supplied wedge that has no guitar in it.

It balances differently though. Somehow the sound of an amp seems to blend more naturally with other instruments in the room. A small monitor sounds like my amp is mic’d in another room and doesn’t balance well with the instruments in the room.

That’s one of those things I’ve been trying to figure out a solution for.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The idea that a live mic would be "less complicated"....Said no soundman ever

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

It’s not that simple. I was trying to be more succinct in the post and not include every single detail about everything this one particular sound tech did.

My point was more in general that you are entirely at the mercy of both the system and the person operating it.

I get it. But one monitor feed for everyone, post EQ, doesn't exactly set him up for success. I haven't run a system that small in years (2 monitor mixes is the smallest I've run in at least 10 years) but as you're aware, little chance of ANYBODY being happy with only one monitor mix when there are more than a couple total channels in use.

 

[spawnofthesith]

The idea that a live mic would be "less complicated"....Said no soundman ever

Stop playing shitty gigs/venues if your sound guy thinks micing an amp is "complicated"

 

[Sascha Franck]

But you are the one who is building all these rigs and bringing and setting up all that equipment to account for monitoring.

First off: There's no more "building" than before. As said, pedalboard and monitor.

Then:

That is now all part of your gear and setup for a show

As said, anything beyond pedalboard and monitor is to add comfort. Comfort that wouldn't even have a chance to exist in the "good old times".
And I usually don't need it, either. In case the venue is decent, I'm asking for a dedicated (separated from the house monitoring) active wedge beforehand. Quite often, that happens to work out just fine. In those cases I'm down to just the pedalboard.

So, no, there's nothing more "complexed" than some years back - unless I want to make it somewhat more complexed for some extra luxury.
And having said that, it's actually not complexed at all. That stuff is dead simple to deal with once you got into it.