Bad sound guys: The bane of digital guitarists

[metropolis_4]

You could show up with an amp and a modeler still right?…unless it’s silent…but then it’s in ears right.
..or am I missing something?

Sometimes, but I’m also coming across more situations where I’m expected to go direct only with no amp or personal monitor.

That was never an expectation or requirement before digital and going direct became the norm.

The fact that the technology exists has changed the game for us guitarists. My trumpet playing friends are never expected to go direct with zero stage volume because it’s not an option for them.

 

[metropolis_4]

What really gets me is when I’m asked to go direct and have no stage volume because it’s a “silent stage” and I’m sitting next to a horn section blowing 110db from the stage

 

[jay mitchell]

I used to show up to any gig with nothing but my amp and a few pedals. Now I have to consider all these other things like monitoring

An amp is "monitoring." A modeler + small monitor is no more to carry and set up than a small combo amp and pedals. I've played gigs with house sound guys (admittedly pros) and PAs, and nobody has ever objected to me using my wedge for myself only, with a house-supplied wedge that has no guitar in it.

 

[metropolis_4]

Ahh…well…that’s the design flaw in soundguys
And it’s sooooooo silly imo…when you have a drumkit ..,and horns…the rest being silent makes it impossible to get a good sound everywhere in the room….not gonna happen.
If the band creates a good overall sound on stage…you just make it louder…and maybe a wee bit of compensation here and there.

But if you need to go direct with no monitor…that means your on IEM right? Thats okish isn’t it?
If it’s “no amp allowed” and they throw a monitor in front of you…I’d get back in the car

Right, it used to be FOH was sound reinforcement but that isn’t the case anymore.

I completely agree, as an audience member I hate when some instruments are heard acoustically from the stage and others are only through the PA, it doesn’t balance right. I get the problems that can happen and I’ve heard some terrible sound from amps on stage, but I still think shows at most venues sound best when you hear some of the sound coming from the stage

 

[OrganicZed]

What really gets me is when I’m asked to go direct and have no stage volume because it’s a “silent stage” and I’m sitting next to a horn section blowing 110db from the stage

That's insane.

I think the real problem is that people know it is possible for guitarists to go direct with no stage volume and so they now expect it because it makes things easier for FOH to mix.

 

[spawnofthesith]

But if you need to go direct with no monitor…that means your on IEM right? Thats okish isn’t it?
If it’s “no amp allowed” and they throw a monitor in front of you…I’d get back in the car

I've dabbled a little bit at our rehearsal space going direct with reactive load/IRs since we use IEMs, and its fine, but its just not the same experience to not have that guitar and bass vibrations happening in the room... switching back to micing my cab I was like "oh yeah fuck that noise I'm not going direct again" lol


Sorry to bring Phish into this thread, but on their recent tour their bass player decided to pull cabs from the stage (guitar did too the first night of the tour then immediately brought cabs back) but to replace that body feel of no bass cabs they have some interesting "rumble pads" that they stand on that react to the bass. Seems like over complicating things to me, just bring the cabs back

 

[metropolis_4]

I've dabbled a little bit at our rehearsal space going direct with reactive load/IRs since we use IEMs, and its fine, but its just not the same experience to not have that guitar and bass vibrations happening in the room... switching back to micing my cab I was like "oh yeah fuck that noise I'm not going direct again" lol


Sorry to bring Phish into this thread, but on their recent tour their bass player decided to pull cabs from the stage (guitar did too the first night of the tour then immediately brought cabs back) but to replace that body feel of no bass cabs they have some interesting "rumble pads" that they stand on that react to the bass. Seems like over complicating things to me, just bring the cabs back

What I keep wondering about is that we’ve solved one problem of giving sound techs more control over FOH by eliminating sound from the stage, but the solution to that creates so many new problems that require such complex solutions… is it worth it?

I guess that probably depends on the situation and the venue?

 

[metropolis_4]

An amp is "monitoring." A modeler + small monitor is no more to carry and set up than a small combo amp and pedals. I've played gigs with house sound guys (admittedly pros) and PAs, and nobody has ever objected to me using my wedge for myself only, with a house-supplied wedge that has no guitar in it.

It balances differently though. Somehow the sound of an amp seems to blend more naturally with other instruments in the room. A small monitor sounds like my amp is mic’d in another room and doesn’t balance well with the instruments in the room.

That’s one of those things I’ve been trying to figure out a solution for.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The idea that a live mic would be "less complicated"....Said no soundman ever

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

It’s not that simple. I was trying to be more succinct in the post and not include every single detail about everything this one particular sound tech did.

My point was more in general that you are entirely at the mercy of both the system and the person operating it.

I get it. But one monitor feed for everyone, post EQ, doesn't exactly set him up for success. I haven't run a system that small in years (2 monitor mixes is the smallest I've run in at least 10 years) but as you're aware, little chance of ANYBODY being happy with only one monitor mix when there are more than a couple total channels in use.

 

[spawnofthesith]

The idea that a live mic would be "less complicated"....Said no soundman ever

Stop playing shitty gigs/venues if your sound guy thinks micing an amp is "complicated"

 

[Sascha Franck]

But you are the one who is building all these rigs and bringing and setting up all that equipment to account for monitoring.

First off: There's no more "building" than before. As said, pedalboard and monitor.

Then:

That is now all part of your gear and setup for a show

As said, anything beyond pedalboard and monitor is to add comfort. Comfort that wouldn't even have a chance to exist in the "good old times".
And I usually don't need it, either. In case the venue is decent, I'm asking for a dedicated (separated from the house monitoring) active wedge beforehand. Quite often, that happens to work out just fine. In those cases I'm down to just the pedalboard.

So, no, there's nothing more "complexed" than some years back - unless I want to make it somewhat more complexed for some extra luxury.
And having said that, it's actually not complexed at all. That stuff is dead simple to deal with once you got into it.

 

[Sascha Franck]

It balances differently though. Somehow the sound of an amp seems to blend more naturally with other instruments in the room.

I vastly prefer the way a decent "FRFR" wedge behaves.

 

[Sascha Franck]

Tbh…I don’t like the no amp on stage thing one bit. Defenitly not when I play myself…

Me neither. Whenever I can, I go for my monitor rather than playing with IEM. The only difference being that what was my amp back then is now my monitor. And fwiw, whenever I can, I treat it exactly like an amp. As in using it just for my guitars and nothing else. And as in asking for another dedicated monitor for all the rest.

 

[metropolis_4]

First off: There's no more "building" than before. As said, pedalboard and monitor.

Then:



As said, anything beyond pedalboard and monitor is to add comfort. Comfort that wouldn't even have a chance to exist in the "good old times".
And I usually don't need it, either. In case the venue is decent, I'm asking for a dedicated (separated from the house monitoring) active wedge beforehand. Quite often, that happens to work out just fine. In those cases I'm down to just the pedalboard.

So, no, there's nothing more "complexed" than some years back - unless I want to make it somewhat more complexed for some extra luxury.
And having said that, it's actually not complexed at all. That stuff is dead simple to deal with once you got into it.

If I’m bringing anything more than an amp and a couple pedals to a gig then it is objectively more complex for me than the “good old times”

With digital sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t, but there a lot more potential scenarios I now need to account for than I ever had before.

I vastly prefer the way a decent ""FRFR"" wedge behaves.

That’s great for you, I can’t stand them

 

[pipelineaudio]

Stop playing shitty gigs/venues if your sound guy thinks micing an amp is "complicated"

Oh the irony!

Someone had a very very bad math teacher

 

[pipelineaudio]

If I’m bringing anything more than an amp and a couple pedals to a gig then it is objectively more complex for me than the “good old times”

Ding ding ding. He's actually talking about bringing LESS than an amp and a couple of pedals. He's talking about bringing an amp and ONE pedal (potentially)

 

[spawnofthesith]

Oh the irony!

Someone had a very very bad math teacher

Huh?


If a sound guy is using the word "complicated" -at all- when talking about micing up a guitar amp they are shit and have absolutely no business running sound. Full stop.

 

[la szum]

Right, it used to be FOH was sound reinforcement but that isn’t the case anymore.

I completely agree, as an audience member I hate when some instruments are heard acoustically from the stage and others are only through the PA, it doesn’t balance right. I get the problems that can happen and I’ve heard some terrible sound from amps on stage, but I still think shows at most venues sound best when you hear some of the sound coming from the stage

Yup. Truth. I mostly hate live sound these days at nearly every level.

It's increasingly rare where you can be trusted to produce a decent
stage sound as a band/ensemble and then allow that to be amplified
and piped through the FOH/Monitors.

Been to club shows for national acts where all you hear are drums in your fucking
face and no guitars, and only getting bass, guitars, vocals from whatever bleeds
out from the back of your head from the PA (or wedges if the band is allowed to use
them).

Once upon a time you wanted to get closer to the stage. Now the closer you get
to the stage the shittier it sounds and the worse the mix gets.

 

[aflynt]

I think people tend to have a rosy image in their head of what it was like pre-IEM/Modelers that might omit some things they either didn't notice or just forgot about. I'll admit that it's more complex, but IME it's way better and more consistent for myself and the audience now that I've got a good handle on how to do it. I run wireless and things definitely sound better throughout the venue than before when I walk around. It's easy to get caught up in your own little bubble thinking that's how things sound everywhere.

As far as drum / bass heavy mixes go, that's just on the sound engineer. The tech isn't dictating that at all. Center fills are a known quantity and you don't need to max out the SPL on your subs.

-Aaron