Bad sound guys: The bane of digital guitarists

[HomespunEffects]

What are we missing? The same thing would happen with analog.

Analog doesn't mean "speaker"

You’re missing the entire complaint. The issue is with the lack of monitoring and control over it that you would have with a combo. You can even point it right at your ear hole.

 

[Sascha Franck]

This is exactly my point though. Look at how much more complicated it’s gotten and how much more equipment is needed now to try to make it work.

Usually, nothing is complicated at all. Set up pedalboard, run one out into the monitor, send another out the FOH way. Monitor path can be leveled and EQed independently.
It doesn't get much easier. And it's so comfortable, real amps can't even dream of.

 

[Sascha Franck]

The issue is with the lack of monitoring and control over it that you would have with a combo.

Which is why you bring a monitor. Much easier and more comfortable than any combo amp.

 

[aflynt]

You’re missing the entire complaint. The issue is with the lack of monitoring and control over it that you would have with a combo. You can even point it right at your ear hole.

I think the issue is more of complexity than lack of monitoring and control. I'd argue that you have far more control over your monitoring with modern solutions (as well as far better consistency from venue to venue), but this is at the expense of more complexity.

-Aaron

 

[spawnofthesith]

Which is why you bring a monitor. Much easier and more comfortable than any combo amp.

How so?

I can’t imagine how it gets any easier than a combo and. A 57 for anyone involved

 

[metropolis_4]

Usually, nothing is complicated at all. Set up pedalboard, run one out into the monitor, send another out the FOH way. Monitor path can be leveled and EQed independently.
It doesn't get much easier. And it's so comfortable, real amps can't even dream of.

Just looking at the things you mentioned in that one single post:

…I have always focused on proper monitoring…
…Zoom H4 that I can use to grab other instruments and some ambience while also routing my modeler into it…
…Super feature reduced IEM setup…
…Behringer mixer…
…always bring some DI boxes…
…utility case…
…grab a split of the keyboards, the bass, whatever it needs…
…then there's my FR monitors…
…Alto TS310…
…G&K 200MV vocal combo…
…all the efforts to finetune my DI sound.

you can’t see how that is more complex than “amp + mic”?

In the old days I usually didn’t even bring a mic, I’d use whatever the sound tech preferred for their venue. So the only thing I had to worry about was an amp.

To me things seem to be a lot more complicated these days

 

[pipelineaudio]

You’re missing the entire complaint. The issue is with the lack of monitoring and control over it that you would have with a combo. You can even point it right at your ear hole.

No, you missed the claim. There are digital combos, this has nothing to do with digital

 

[pipelineaudio]

Yes, if we’re going to be pedantic about it, technically it is not strictly related to digital. If you were using an analog cab sim you could also experience the same issue.

Nothing pedantic at all. Were I being pedantic I'd point out the giant elephant in the room that is the fact that at a modern club, the entire chain would be going thru a digital mixer

 

[HomespunEffects]

No, you missed the claim. There are digital combos, this has nothing to do with digital

Nope

 

[DreamTheaterRules]

The guy running sound is not a professional. He’s doing his best, but the system is also not very good.

There is one single monitor feed and it’s post-EQ so we all have to share one mix, and every single change he makes on the channel strips to set FOH changes our monitor sound.

So, as a sound man, I see this thread title, and then in two sentences you show that he has NO CHANCE of giving you what you want, and that the best pro in the world couldn't either, with that system.

As both a guitar player and a sound man, I love it when people blame the sound man for everything, but it's especially rewarding when they then post enough info that anyone who knows anything knows it's not the sound mans fault. So despite the busting on the sound man thread title, uh.... thanks!

 

[HomespunEffects]

Yes, if we’re going to be pedantic about it, technically it is not strictly related to digital. If you were using an analog cab sim you could also experience the same issue.

It is something that has become much more prevalent with the rise of digital gear however and is a more common issue to face when using digital gear because it is more common to go direct without a speaker with digital gear

I understood the premise of your post.

 

[dk_ace]

The personal monitor thing is a little complicated. I can’t do an IEM solution unless I also set up a mic to pick up ambient around me since not everything is mic’d.

I can’t do a personal monitor unless everyone does one because I’d blast out the other musicians.

I can’t do an amp unless everyone else is doing an amp.

Back in the old days when there wasn’t this expectation of everyone going silent direct these problems didn’t exist. Everything was great on stage and we just made the sound guy and audience deal with the sound issues

I guess I don’t get it? You already have a wedge just for you right (enough though everyone is in it, you’re not sharing the wedge)? Set a separate powered wedge that you bring yourself next to it that only has you in it, and keep the level where it’s just loud enough for you to hear yourself over the other wedge with everyone, even turn the mixed wedge down a little if that’s an option. The stage level won’t be much louder and as long as you bring a wedge that’s fairly directional in it’s throw you shouldn’t bother anyone else.

Shared monitor mixes are generally death IME regardless of who’s mixing. I’ve played a few gigs that had a shared mix for everything and then a control for your own channel volume, and that generally works pretty acceptably for me.

The gig may not be worthy of buying new equipment for, which I get. If that’s the case, it’s just gonna suck lol. There are a lot of things you can soldier through, including not liking how your tone sounds in the monitor, not being able to hear yourself adequately at all is tough to deal with though.

D

 

[Sascha Franck]

How so?

I can’t imagine how it gets any easier than a combo and. A 57 for anyone involved

- With a FR monitor, I can adjust stage sound EQ and volume independently from the FOH feed.
- No (possibly moving) mic stand involved.
- No bleed from other sources.
- No more looking for the perfect mic spot.
- No speaker beam.
- Decent "FRFR" monitors can weigh as little as 10kg. Which combo amp could compete?
- I can use an "FRFR" monitor for acoustic guitars, too.
- I can use an "FRFR" monitor for other signals, too, should there be no dedicated monitor for me.

All these are making both setup times and general stage life easier. A lot easier.

 

[Sascha Franck]

you can’t see how that is more complex than “amp + mic”?

No. Because my basic setup is just that, too. Pedalboard plus active monitor, done.
All the other options are addons only making my life much more comfortable and wouldn't be available with a plain amp at all.

To me things seem to be a lot more complicated these days

They're not, see above. You're making them more complicated.

 

[Sascha Franck]

I went off the small/light as it can be track…and set the bar at “as big as possible but doable for a 100m without cursing”.
In my mind..,bigger is always better when it comes to speakers …and life’s too short to compromise what I love too much.

Gotta say I'm perfectly happy with my stage sound 90% of all times. For me there's no need to get bigger.

 

[Sascha Franck]

In my mind it has become easier over the last 2 decades..,.

Quite defenitely. For my purposes, modeling and the various ways to utilize it, have been a godsend.
Setup time is as short as it gets, I can use pretty much anything ("FRFR", straight into an amp's input, straight into an amp's return, straight into whatever IEM system) with very little differences in the final sound.
Transportation is fantastic, too, everything fits into a small bike trailer, the smaller setup even is train compatible. And my next medium setup will be able to get with me on a bike without any trailer.
Also, I have never gotten so much compliments about my sound before making the switch. People love it that my stage volume doesn't affect FOH volume. People love it that there's no speaker beam of death. I have never been asked to actually turn my stuff *up* that often, either.

 

[metropolis_4]

So, as a sound man, I see this thread title, and then in two sentences you show that he has NO CHANCE of giving you what you want, and that the best pro in the world couldn't either, with that system.

As both a guitar player and a sound man, I love it when people blame the sound man for everything, but it's especially rewarding when they then post enough info that anyone who knows anything knows it's not the sound mans fault. So despite the busting on the sound man thread title, uh.... thanks!

It’s not that simple. I was trying to be more succinct in the post and not include every single detail about everything this one particular sound tech did.

My point was more in general that you are entirely at the mercy of both the system and the person operating it.

I could give you more sets out the mistakes and frustrating things this particular person has been doing but it’s not relevant to the point

No. Because my basic setup is just that, too. Pedalboard plus active monitor, done.
All the other options are addons only making my life much more comfortable and wouldn't be available with a plain amp at all.



They're not, see above. You're making them more complicated.

But you are the one who is building all these rigs and bringing and setting up all that equipment to account for monitoring. That is now all part of your gear and setup for a show

 

[metropolis_4]

You think so? In my mind..a modeler & 2/3 combos allow my any scenario…from silent to blasting someone in the front. Some might add a ""FRFR"" to that…
In my mind it has become easier over the last 2 decades..,.

Maybe a difference is that where you used to didn’t think about your foh signal (some dude miced it)…now that shifted to our responsibility.

I do think it’s gotten more complicated for us as guitarists. I have to deal with so much more gear considerations than I ever had to in the past.

There are pros and cons to that, but it is definitely more complicated from our side.

I used to show up to any gig with nothing but my amp and a few pedals. Now I have to consider all these other things like monitoring that I as a guitarist never had to deal with before.

 

[spawnofthesith]

- With a FR monitor, I can adjust stage sound EQ and volume independently from the FOH feed.
- No (possibly moving) mic stand involved.
- No bleed from other sources.
- No more looking for the perfect mic spot.
- No speaker beam.
- Decent ""FRFR"" monitors can weigh as little as 10kg. Which combo amp could compete?
- I can use an ""FRFR"" monitor for acoustic guitars, too.
- I can use an ""FRFR"" monitor for other signals, too, should there be no dedicated monitor for me.

All these are making both setup times and general stage life easier. A lot easier.

" a lot easier" is a pretty big exaggeration imo. I've never experienced a gig where setting up/micing a speaker/cab takes more than 1 minute at most. And the "problems" listed aren't really much of problems at all. This stuff is dead simple, and I would avoid playing at venues with sound guys who make it out to be anything other than dead simple

But I'm a big proponent of using what you like and whats best for your specific situation, so I'm glad that your setup works for you and makes your life easier

 

[spawnofthesith]

I put a guitar and a QC in a double gigbag,,,and the 50w stJames,,,and I bycicle to the club

Tbh…I don’t like the no amp on stage thing one bit. Defenitly not when I play myself…but also not as a listener.
As a listener it works in optimal conditions with PAs covering the whole room (middle speakers, delaystacks etc…arenas for sure…but festivals, clubs…it sounds very anemic tbh…plus..in many cases when you are in front…you hear drums…cause you are between the speakers.
Special mention for coverbands that use 2 small PA speakers they put on poles themselves…preferable an electric drumkit also…terrible…
I understand this happens under pressure of volume restrictions…but in my mind it’s a kiss of slow death for live music.
I’d rather do it oldfashioned,,,and just play softer.

Big venues as long as you aren't at the front no guitar stage volume is fine I guess, but a more intimate vene or a bar or even bigger clubs if you're at the front.... no stage volume is whack AF from an audience perspective